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Advise on truck and engine purchase - Magard - 04-11-2016
Hi all I'm new to the forum. Been trucking for 10 year before all this emission stuff came to be. I was mandated to upgrade to particulate filter so I sold out. Heard so many horror stories about the new trucks being broke down and in the shop more than driving. I am going to by a used truck but I don't know if Cummins is the most sensible choice. Frankly I'm scared of all of them but I'm leaning towards a 2009 Volvo with Cummins. I don't like paccar trucks so freightliner but I have heard Terrible stories of freightliner Cummins combo. Don't know much about Volvo engines. My last truck was a freightliner with pre emission isx. I liked the motor all right but the fuel system seems wierd. My favorite truck was a freightliner with a preemision ism with a rv program in it set at 450 hp. But those days are gone. Looking for advise with experience behind it, thanks
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - Waterloo - 04-11-2016
Go read Rawze's book first, link is up above in the menu... And then be prepared to break out your wallet.
If you find a good truck, or at least one you think is good, there will still be allot of maintenance. Remember, people do not sell trucks that are making money. If you go the EGR route instead of say an older pre emission truck, get the EGR system in order, which may include $2500 for an EGR Cooler, another $600 to $1000 for EGR sensors and Doser. Then you will need to get Insite, another $400 to eBay. You will want/need to eliminate the mandate ASAP. If you can, pressure test the EGR Cooler along with the motor and then see if the system is building pressure as in a leaking head gasket or cracked head.
Check the head gasket, do not trust the seller! Do the above tests! Odds are it will be bad or soon to go on you. Heads have been a popping around here on these 2008 to 2010 ISX motors like Carter and his liver pills. If the head gasket is leaking, you cannot just slap a gasket in there, you will need to replace the head too. Go with a factory OEM new in the box head, stay away from the remans, figure $4000 + Labor. Also figure in at least one, if not both cams if you are in there, another $1450 ea., plus a few other odds and ends that likely will be found.
Then we have the lower end of the motor, look at the oil pressure on the truck you are thinking of. If it is below 35psi, just expect to have the lower end done. Figure $2000 to $2500. If the head is leaking and the lower end is going, time to in frame her. That figure is all over the map, from $20,000 to infinity. May as well do the clutch too at that point...
If the truck is over 500,000 miles on the ODO, figure on replacing the Damper/Harmonic Balancer on the motor. They have a shelf life, and will wreak havoc on your motor and its accessories. Figure $1100 if you have a dealer do it.
If you can do a Injector leak down test, that would be a good thing too... Injectors are not cheap, around $400 ea. You also have the fuel metering/timing actuators, they normally go 800,000 miles and will need to be replaced. $400 ea, there are four of them. They can be tested to see if they are bad, Rawze has a video...
Then we have the rest of the systems on the truck... Your biggest issue will be cleaning up the EGR mess, which is what leads to all of the above issues and more, as these systems destroy these motors. And I will state again, people do not sell trucks if they are making money. They rid themselves of them because they cost them money, like blown head gaskets and screwed up buggy EGR systems. Rawze posted an interesting number here somewhere, our maintenance costs went from like .04 a mile to .17 a mile with these EGR trucks, something to consider.
Knowing what I know, if you have to have an emissions truck, go with the Cummins if you plan to keep it. At least we can work on these, and once fixed and mandates eliminated, they are very good motors and will get some excellent fuel mileage. Just make sure you have at least say $20,000 in the bank before you pull the trigger, if not more, or have access to that kind of money. I'm at $36,000 right now on my in frame, we are going through this bitch end to end... The truck has 900,000 miles on her. The only parts we are saving are the CAC, the block and Crank. Everything else is going to be new, right back to the driveline. I could have two nice in framed restored pre emission Pete's for what I have in this truck, along with all of the down time and lost revenue. You will need to learn how to work on this truck, you will need tools and more than likely test equipment. You will discover that few shops have a clue on how to properly repair these trucks, motors and or the EGR systems. There is a learning curve, but we have this website which has been a God send. I would be bankrupt if not for Rawze and the rest of the outstanding individuals here that have freely given me their advice and help.
So, hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Just make sure you have access to the capital to keep her on the road and do the needed repairs. Good luck with your decision, as I have never had so many issues with any piece of equipment I have ever owned, hind sight is 20/20. This is my seventh or eight truck, I forget. But the days of servicing, grease and routine maint. are long gone, none of my trucks were ever down like this thing, NEVER.
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - Rawze - 04-11-2016
(04-11-2016 )Magard Wrote: Hi all I'm new to the forum. Been trucking for 10 year before all this emission stuff came to be. I was mandated to upgrade to particulate filter so I sold out. Heard so many horror stories about the new trucks being broke down and in the shop more than driving. I am going to by a used truck but I don't know if Cummins is the most sensible choice. Frankly I'm scared of all of them but I'm leaning towards a 2009 Volvo with Cummins. I don't like paccar trucks so freightliner but I have heard Terrible stories of freightliner Cummins combo. Don't know much about Volvo engines. My last truck was a freightliner with pre emission isx. I liked the motor all right but the fuel system seems wierd. My favorite truck was a freightliner with a preemision ism with a rv program in it set at 450 hp. But those days are gone. Looking for advise with experience behind it, thanks
My most favorite engine to least fav. of the ISX engines...
#1 -- CM871 (2008 - early 2011)
#2 -- CM2350 (2013 and newer)
#3 -- CM2250 (late 2011 - 2012, first DEF fluid engine)
#4 -- CM870 (least favorite, but better then different brands)
===========
Best highway trucks for making money of the newer aero trucks anyways, in order of my favorites. this assumes the engines would be of all the same model ...
#1 -- Tie between International Prostar and a Kenworth T700
#2 -- Freightliner Evolution
The Prostar, T700, and Evolution are all about a tie in fuel efficiency.
#3 -- all the other Aero Petes and Aero KW trucks are not as efficient as the first ones mentioned.
#4 -- Volvo trucks -- the worst of all the Aero trucks out there in efficiency. The CAC, and engine compartment design is not very good for the engine. Poor air flow around the engine makes the turbo's run hotter than other trucks making them last about 100k miles shorter lifespan, the exhaust and intake systems are restrictive in them too, and make for about 0.6 lower fuel mileage than all other aero trucks. -- Basiclly, they are great interior trucks with terrible engine compartment design. The drive-line is made from toothpicks, and they have suspension system problems. I would never own such a terrible truck.
So my choice,.. Prostar w/CM871. Second Choice,.. T700 w/CM2350.
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - in2trux - 04-11-2016
Ask them for the maintenance recrds, warranty repair history. More than likely you'll be met with a blank stare!
It amazes me, 99%+ will have no records. YOU ARE BUYING A BUSINESS!
This is the only business I know of that treats the business like a crap shoot!
That is a sure fire recipe for failure.
Do your homework, you are on the right track, starting with asking questions.
Warranties aren't worth much. If you do get on make sure you read it very carefully!
Any way they can weasel out of it, they will!
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - Magard - 04-11-2016
Hey thanks for advise on Volvo. Maybe I'll look for a freightliner or pro star. I owned 2 freightliner century class. Don't know about international. Freightliner parts are easier to find.
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - in2trux - 04-11-2016
I'm no fan of Freightshakers, electrical harness problems, fit and finish leave allot to be desired. I had a brand new 79 conv. and snow would drift in through the door seals.
It's only saving grace was a 3406b, 13 spd, 3.90 rears. For it's day, doing really good!
I agree with Rawze. The Prostar is the best bang for the buck. T700 is a very stout cab, well designed. I opted for the 386 Pete for a couple of reasons.
I like the Pete cab, it's the same as the 389 but with the set back axle and dropped hood. The engine doesn't sit back under the firewall or push into the cab.
When you get down to it, you're going to own it, so be comfortable with it. It's all about which OEM you're dealing with, the badge is just a name anymore.
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - Magard - 04-12-2016
Thanks for the info guys. I never really even thought of a pro star. I've been looking into them and found some that might work really well. It seems like they run a lot cheaper than other trucks is there a reason for this. I have found some 2009 Ryder trucks with 3-400k on them for $35,000. 450 isx 10spd nothing fancy just good working type trucks. Seems cheap others also similar money 500k aluminum wheels a little bigger sleeper. The 450 isx has a 1500lbs torque rating is it possible to get to 1800 lbs with computer program. Thought if I bought a derated one it might not have as many head gasket or turbo problems due to not working as hard.
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - Cuya - 04-12-2016
Prostar are cheaper because a lot of them have maxforce engines (terrible engine,.. not worth 2 cents). they are a failed experiment and dealers cant give those POS trucks away.
Prostars with cummins is not bad. most have the 871 in them but everyone hated it as they were known to be nothing but soot/dpf problems. From factory they would bankrupt a owner-op. i read somewhere that the 871 is the sootiest engine out there and people get rid of them at 400-500k because that is when the soot eats the cam and everything else up.
Get one and have the "Mandate" stripped off it and eventually an inframe, then you got something that will make you some serious $$$ instead. if it has a lot of miles on engine then you gonna eventually be putting money in it to get it back right, there is no getting around it because no one takes care of them until it is too late. Seems to be the norm for people who own them and like them anyways, unless they get lucky and find one that had a bypass filter on it from new.
I dont think no one mentioned this but prostar is also not a tough truck. they are made for open roads and highway only and not for backroads or oil field use. They are easy to tear up and they dont like going fast above 63 or so because the road beats them to death. I think most of the other brand of new trucks comming out are this way too though, so just keep that in mind.
stuff just not made like it used to be is all.
RE: Advise on truck and engine purchase - DrivingZiggy - 04-12-2016
I'm a total Volvo man! I have the Cummins. Really the only Volvo engine to avoid (that I know of) is the D-16. However, I really haven't heard anything from anybody about Volvo engines.
Mine? No engine problems. Just recently it began acting up so I did the EGR tune up and everything is hunky dory now. Had a coolant leak, turned out to be the bunk heater core (I think--I haven't been on a real trip yet since replacing it and the o-rings and tightening up all hoses all over the truck). Have replaced the entire air system, but I think that was the "technicians" just throwing stuff at it until it "fixed" it. Have replaced the A/C compressor twice.
Also, my truck is very low mileage. At 5.5 years, I'm only up to 326,000 miles.