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excessive moisture in egr valve - williamsbuilding - 12-26-2020
>50k on inflame including new turbo, dpf, egr valve, egr cooler and egr sensors on cm871. Running great, great mpg and will not passive regen. My shop a bit puzzled found excessive moisture, not coolant, in egr. Communicating with cummins suggesting a new egr valve, and test driving to try to see if its working. They had replaced egr valve approximately 15k after rebuild because of same complaint from me. I do not have insite and not sure what to think. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for your time.
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - Rawze - 12-26-2020
Sounds to me like you might be dealing with someone clueless. Makes me wonder what else that shop might have done incorrectly, half-arssed, or has been guessing blindly at. If some mechanic told me that the EGR valve on a CM871 was the cause of water in the circuit, I would have run the other way as fast as I could.
There are no water or coolant circuits/lines/hoses going to the EGR valve. Replacing the EGR valve would do absolutely nothing towards solving moisture or coolant issues inside the EGR piping except to lighten your wallet of some of your hard earned cash.
If it has been confirmed that it is actually moisture buildup and the system has been tested for, and there are no coolant leaks (similar to this test: https://youtu.be/tNmQnAJzmVo ), then chasing down moisture in the EGr circuits is most likely chasing a ghost for no reason except someone's own paranoia.
Here is another post(s) from people discussing moisture found in EGR and intake circuits...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=5873&pid=50977#pid50977
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - williamsbuilding - 12-26-2020
They can't seem to figure out why it will not regen passively, they can force it and it seems to perform as it should, gets to temp, etc. This will be third egr valve since rebuild, including one installed during rebuild. I can update on Monday what has or they would like to do next. They are waiting to attempt warranty coverage for at least the part, one year and 4 days. 4 days out of warranty. I have sent oil samples to lab every oil drop with good results each time. Most recent was just prior to going to the shop. I certainly do not have the knowledge as many here do, but have been reading post here for over a year trying to care for and understand this engine. Wish I had Insite software, but can't find cost effective way to own it. I've seen offers of $1200/years for licensing plus hardware. Sure appreciate all that others do here to help.
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - Waterloo - 12-26-2020
(12-26-2020 )williamsbuilding Wrote: They can't seem to figure out why it will not regen passively, they can force it and it seems to perform as it should, gets to temp, etc. This will be third egr valve since rebuild, including one installed during rebuild. I can update on Monday what has or they would like to do next. They are waiting to attempt warranty coverage for at least the part, one year and 4 days. 4 days out of warranty. I have sent oil samples to lab every oil drop with good results each time. Most recent was just prior to going to the shop. I certainly do not have the knowledge as many here do, but have been reading post here for over a year trying to care for and understand this engine. Wish I had Insite software, but can't find cost effective way to own it. I've seen offers of $1200/years for licensing plus hardware. Sure appreciate all that others do here to help.
Have you tried eBay? That is where most of us got ours, I did, Raze did, comes with the software, around $200 to $250... I have had one for quite a few years, works flawlessly.
Here is one from China, where most get them, $229 w/free shipping https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-INLINE-6-Data-Link-Adapter-truck-heavy-duty-diagnostic-obdii-scanner/123742287676?hash=item1ccf9d773c:g:zAIAAOSwIJlZ9U~7
Here is the same thing, in Dallas TX, $274 w/free, shipping, I would pay the extra to get it sooner. Some of the stuff coming out of China is taking some time now, not the normal 3-5 days with DHL. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inline-6-USB-Data-Link-Adapter-full-kit-Fit-for-Cummins-Engine-J1939-J1708/254353420216?hash=item3b38a52fb8:g:avMAAOSwG4Be7xPe
You need Windows 7 or Windows 10, I'll send you some links to help with setting it up, check your PM and email...
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - Rawze - 12-26-2020
(12-26-2020 )williamsbuilding Wrote: They can't seem to figure out why it will not regen passively, they can force it and it seems to perform as it should, gets to temp, etc. This will be third egr valve since rebuild, including one installed during rebuild. I can update on Monday what has or they would like to do next. They are waiting to attempt warranty coverage for at least the part, one year and 4 days. 4 days out of warranty. I have sent oil samples to lab every oil drop with good results each time. Most recent was just prior to going to the shop. I certainly do not have the knowledge as many here do, but have been reading post here for over a year trying to care for and understand this engine. Wish I had Insite software, but can't find cost effective way to own it. I've seen offers of $1200/years for licensing plus hardware. Sure appreciate all that others do here to help.
The problem is that your taking it to the least qualified place you can to solve regen and DPF issues.... THE OEM NETWORK OF COLLECTIVE IDIOTS!!!!
- First and foremost, START by replacing the IMAP, Exhaust Backp-ressure sensor and checking to see if the bp sensor feed-circuit thru the thermostat housing is clogged up (a common problem), EGR Delta-P sensor and cleaning out the Delta-P crossover tubes, etc. ... I.E..> An EGR-Tuneup instead of throwing expensive parts at it over and over and doing nothing but wasting money and time.
- NEXT, When is the last time the DOC, DPf etc. were removed, baked, de-ashed, then flow-tested? . -- Pull the DOC and DPF off and post photos of their faces on the forum here ... see how clogged they actually are and what type of buildup is on their faces. THOSE CANS DO NOT MAKE SOOT/BUILDUP ... THE ENGINE DOES!... >Pull off the Delta-P tubes from the DPF and clean em out, inspect them for leaks in the bushings, etc... and replace the DPF Delta-P sensor. While your at it, verify the temp sensors via a temp gun during regen cycle.
- WHEN is the last time someone pressurized the entire engine to 30 psi ... not just the CAC ... but the whole engine and checked it for air/boost leaks?.
- Has anyone ever removed the EGR cooler and cleaned it out?... After abut 500+k miles, it starts getting soot-packed and restrictive. If it gets bad enough, carbon chunks will form and as they come loose, they cause some expensive turbo failures.
- Has anyone verified there are no exhaust leaks? -- how about when the last time the Doser injector was cleaned or replaced?.. and inspected for seepage?
- NEXT: What does the regen history look like in the ECM? ... Post photos/screen-shots of the regen history in Insite.
Do you even have Insite? -- If not, then WHY? ... That is a red cry-baby you own... Invest in a china/e-bay inline-6 adapter for a few hundred bucks and get your own copy of insite going so you can work on the damned thing.
-- People should realize that --- IF SOMEONE DOES NOT GRAB A WRENCH AND TAKE THESE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS, THEY ARE JUST WASTING THEIR TIME AND MONEY TRYING TO GET "FREE/WARRANTY" AND ALL SORTS OF HALF-ARSSED REPAIRS ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF TENS OF THOUSANDS IN LOST REVENUE WHILE THE OEM SHOPS GAGGLE THE F$UCK AROUND REPLACING EXPENSIVE PARTS AND BLIND GUESSING AS IT RUINS YOUR BUSINESS!... THAT IS NO WAY TO RUN A TRUCKING COMPANY!
You think if I owned it, I would not be yanking all that stuff off that engine, Pulling those cans and inspecting their faces to see what is clogging them up, performing those tests and measures that I mentioned above and finding those issues fairly easily and quickly? --- THOSE OEM SHOPS ARE SEVERELY UNDER-EDUCATED IN SOME EXPENSIVE WAYS ... A NETWORK OF MORONS, THAT IS WHAT MOST OF THEM ARE. THEY ARE SET UP AND TRAINED TO DO NOTHING BUT BUT REPLACE EXPENSIVE PARTS OVER AND OVER WITH NO REAL SOLUTIONS, NO REAL PREVENTATIVE MEASURES, AND NO REAL TROUBLESHOOTING PROCEDURES THAT ARE WORTH A DAMN!!.
- It is not rocket science. here is some related info ...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=7&pid=9#pid9
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - Waterloo - 12-26-2020
Rawze is correct, the dealer will simply milk your wallet and throw parts at it hoping something sticks, I have been there and done that, as many of us have here. I have plenty of stories, and then I found this site, was stubborn at first, and soon figured it out, and it was very very expensive... Tens of thousands of dollars, I had to learn the hard way. Don't be me.
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - Rawze - 12-26-2020
It also now has 50k miles on it ... Has anyone bothered to go into it and do the 50k mile (second) overhead valve adjustment on it after the inframe now that the valve seats, valves, and head have settled in? -- It is now due!
After the overhead valve re-adjustment, does it pass an injector leak test? ...
<iframe id="lbry-iframe" width="560" height="315" src="https://odysee.com/$/embed/isx-injector-leak-test-by-rawze-1-3/abed662556959c0e860cd1e0d7f005d3e0ff9a3d?r=8p8MjqctPT8PafuYA5mftGueGF8L3how" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe id="lbry-iframe" width="560" height="315" src="https://odysee.com/$/embed/isx-injector-leak-test-by-rawze-2-3/bbfaee2181ca2cbee74b51e1541cda32184ae323?r=8p8MjqctPT8PafuYA5mftGueGF8L3how" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe id="lbry-iframe" width="560" height="315" src="https://odysee.com/$/embed/isx-injector-leak-test-by-rawze-3-3/734c0ca54f6233b7033e3dc89639a8a7faea8a08?r=8p8MjqctPT8PafuYA5mftGueGF8L3how" allowfullscreen></iframe>
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - williamsbuilding - 12-26-2020
I'm sorry if I've wasted your time.
I have done egr tune up about 20k miles after inflame, including egr temp sensor, delta p, exhaust manifold pressure sensor, dpf delta-p. The back pressure sensor tube was replaced during rebuild as I requested. At this time it began passive regens again till lately. Turbo and dpf were replaced shortly after rebuild.
Egr cooler replaced at rebuild.
Doser is less than 120k miles and cleaned head whe I did egr tune up to eliminate it as suspect as best I could.
I do not yet have software. Hope to get it soon. Reason is thought it was cost prohibitive until waterloo post.
I'm not afraid to wrench a bit, but hate to do all of it on my time off.
I wouldn't be the guy to do my own inflame or head removal, don't have and don't want a full on shop.
Forgive me if I wasted you time.
RE: excessive moisture in egr valve - JimT - 12-26-2020
(12-26-2020 )williamsbuilding Wrote: I'm sorry if I've wasted your time.
I have done egr tune up about 20k miles after inflame, including egr temp sensor, delta p, exhaust manifold pressure sensor, dpf delta-p. The back pressure sensor tube was replaced during rebuild as I requested. At this time it began passive regens again till lately.
That statement points to the first place to start looking. Start by inspecting the back pressure sensor tube for clogs, check each sensor, including the imap, for carbon build up and clogs. Then, if they all check out, start inspecting the electrical parts. Check each sensor to make sure it's providing the proper electrical readings. Check all the wires and contacts for corrosion and/or damage. TEST (with a multimeter) all the wires and wiggle them around to look for HIDDEN issues inside the wires/wiring harnesses. You could have some intermittent problem that occurs when bouncing down the road. The split second anomaly could be enough to inhibit a passive regen.
Someone with Insite needs to look at ALL sensor data. There's a chance that the ECM could be just starting to go with the only signs being intermittent corrupt data. Probably NOT the issue, but it's possible.
(12-26-2020 )williamsbuilding Wrote: Turbo and dpf were replaced shortly after rebuild.
Egr cooler replaced at rebuild.
Doser is less than 120k miles and cleaned head whe I did egr tune up to eliminate it as suspect as best I could.
I do not yet have software. Hope to get it soon. Reason is thought it was cost prohibitive until waterloo post.
I'm not afraid to wrench a bit, but hate to do all of it on my time off.
I wouldn't be the guy to do my own inflame or head removal, don't have and don't want a full on shop.
Forgive me if I wasted you time.
Also, just for clarity, there are 3 types of Regens: Passive, Active and Parked.
Passive: Driving down the road, normal engine operation creates high exhaust temps that burn off some soot from the DPF.
Active: During driving the system will use the turbo and additional fuel injected into the exhaust to raise DPF temps high enough to (nearly) completely burn off any soot. This type is also subject to operating conditions.
Parked: Just like an Active regen, however this is performed while stationary (IE: under a controlled environment). Usually only needed when the first 2 types have repeatedly been unable to bring the soot levels below a preprogrammed threshold and the computer determines that continued operation risks an unsafe level of exhaust restriction.
Passive regens happen completely without your knowledge. Active regens can also be hard to spot when driving down the highway. Passive regens need good hard pulls to produce hotter exhaust gasses and be effective. Active regens use the turbo and doser valve to force the exhaust gasses to be hotter. Both types are only effective if they can run successfully for about 45 minutes to and hour without interruption.
I'm assuming the issue is that you're being asked by the computer to perform parked regens to clean the system. Which means that Active or Passive regens aren't completing properly. While the EGR valve does play a role, it's probably NOT the cause of your issues if a Parked regen works. In addition to the sensors listed above you should look for exhaust leaks. They have a smaller impact on parked regens and can completely throw off any regen attempts. Also, depending on the age, you might just need a new DOC. The coating of precious metals wears away over time and eventually doesn't produce a good enough chemical reaction to sustain a successful regen cycle.
What kind of driving do you do? OTR? Local? Mostly highway or a lot of stop and go? Do you have a Pyro gauge? Maybe you're driving habits or route isn't conducive to successful passive/active regens.
Also, what has your oil consumption been since the rebuild? You could still be burning excess oil while the piston rings set, leading to extra soot clogging up the DPF and EGR systems.