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+--- Thread: Exhaust gas pressure limits? (/showthread.php?tid=8281)
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RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Rawze - 06-21-2022
(06-21-2022 )Badger Wrote: ...
the reason i rebuilt it last time was because i had a fire ring burn out of hole 2, broken ring on hole 5 or 6, and the injector cups leaking in the head, and the injectors had 1.3 million miles on them so i just did them while i was in there.
-- note that this time around it was small hp 8520cpl , and i swapped pistons and turbo to 8518 and wedged the cams to 4/6. so im not getting greedy with HP, i just want a reliable 565 hp, should be easey peasey since they came factory with that much and more. ( even before cpl and tune changes this general " egt / boost issue" has always been there, not from the cpl change alone)
...
If a fire ring got damaged, then a liner was dancing in the block. I hope you counter-bored it and raised the liners to 0.015".. otherwise you have not extended the life of that engine at all by replacing those things. It will not make it a few years, and you will be right back taking it apart yet again.. and replacing that head all over again due to another dropped liner.
Your post also states that you may have swapped some of the components on the internals too?.
Here are the actual differences...
CPL8520 engine uses part#'s ...
oil cooler: LC1737-04 (single element).
crankShaft: 4925761
turbo: 4036666 (fuel savings turbo)
piston: 4923747
CPL8518 engine uses part#'s ...
oil cooler: LC1736-05 (dual element).
crankShaft: 3681910 (increased oil flow)
turbo: 4043214 (higher heat turbo)
piston: 4923743 (lower compression)
All of the other components with regards to performance are the same between those 2 builds. Same injectors, same head, same cams, same valves, etc.
By using the lower compression pistons of the CPL8518 and the bigger turbo, the engine is going to be measurably less fuel efficient, mostly due to that turbo. I have seen people loose 1+ mpg by switching to that turbo model to only later regret it unless they had a specific need for it. Even with higher HP, the engine does not need that bigger, less efficient turbo on it, unless you are heavy-hauling.
With the lower compression pistons, different injection timing and other settings need to happen to get it programmed correctly for that type of custom build. The higher rpm injection timing curve needs to be corrected. Also if you used the 4/6 wedge, you will need a program that matches this different mechanical setup too.
I.E.> you have kind of created a bit of a mess with it, and likely for no good reason at all, especially if all you wanted to do was bump it up to 560~ish hp. It already had the bigger tier(1) injectors in it, valve/injector cams, ect. and that is most of the cause that would have built extra heat and stress at higher HP levels, .. so that was never the issue. Seems to me that Someone somewhere has lead you down a rabbit hole on that one.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Rawze - 06-21-2022
(06-21-2022 )Badger Wrote: ...
will the file you want a copy of, be in "Advanced ECM data" on the left side of insite?
...
Insite software cannot copy the file out of it.
You need to copy the program out of it with the Calterm software and e-mail it to me so that I can tell you exactly what someone has done to that thing internally. Without good programming, you are only going to keep chasing your tail on it... and someone needs to switch off those dammed silent derates that are stuck in ram memory that are causing the turbo to go wonky and drop boost whenever you get on it, out the programming. There are about 10 settings or so that need to be changed that can only be done while connected to the ecm live.. and are not part of any flash file. I have been trying to educate those godd$amn clowns who do custom engine tuning for CM870's for years about this problem, but none of them seem to give a damn past taking someone's moneys and them blaming all the problems on the engine or its turbo... so that they can sell you more crap.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Badger - 06-21-2022
so the only thing i havent changed was the crankshaft or the oil cooler. oil doesnt over heat so ill change it when i feel the need. and as far as the crankshaft and oil flow, i guess ill risk it while running my 40 psi of oil.
but anyway, i have the smaller turbo which is 75mm exducer VS the 80mm exducer larger turbos. they both acted the exact same.
the latest tune i had done was for a cpl 8518 , 4/6 timing engine.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Rawze - 06-22-2022
(06-21-2022 )Badger Wrote: ...
but anyway, i have the smaller turbo which is 75mm exducer VS the 80mm exducer larger turbos. they both acted the exact same.
...
Is the nut holding the cold side turbine blade a 12-point nut.. or a 6-point nut?. On the 500-series turbo's, that is how you can tell what version of the turbo you have.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Badger - 06-22-2022
Pretty sure 12 point. Turbo that 8518cpl calls for is 2881993RX, right now I have the 8520 on , which is 2881994rx
I do have calterm but I’ve never even opened it on my computer so , I’ll plug into it when I get home today and check it out, try to get you some more info
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Rawze - 06-22-2022
(06-22-2022 )Badger Wrote: Pretty sure 12 point. Turbo that 8518cpl calls for is 2881993RX, right now I have the 8520 on , which is 2881994rx
I do have calterm but I’ve never even opened it on my computer so , I’ll plug into it when I get home today and check it out, try to get you some more info
It does not matter what the part#'s say ... the 12-point nut is the fuel efficient, lighter turbine, fuel efficient version of the turbo and is not made for heavy-haul applications. The 6-point nut on the cold side is the thicker, titanium turbine version of the turbo made for heavy-haul.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Rawze - 06-23-2022
(06-21-2022 )Badger Wrote: ...
will the file you want a copy of, be in "Advanced ECM data" on the left side of insite?
im thankful for the help, dont think im here just arguing, im trying to comprehend this ECM stuff
Well,.. here is what I see in your program that you sent me at a glance. Its pretty bad ...
* Main boost power setting is set to cut out/derate during non-egr engine mode operation.
* boost (charge flow) limiting tables have not been corrected to allow the turbo to spool up all the way.
* Aux emissions systems are still in place to limit combustion.
* No proper engine operating mode control has been done. This makes the engine unstable, it will jump operating modes unpredictably, turbo operations, injection timing, atc. all become unstable, and eventually causes damage to the cylinders.
* turbo mass flow tables have not been corrected properlty. This engine will under boost and have eratic boost levels.
* injection timing is as high as 11+ BTDC under high operating loads. This injection timing is horrible and is going to cause either a cracked piston or a dropped liner due to excessive internal engine friction all the time. Not even my lawn-mower needs injection timing this high.. this is seriously bad!.
* some derates have not been shut off properly. Egr, Charge outlet temp, and others.
* engine is reporting higher than normal CAC and intake temps. Is the CAC, A/C condenser, or radiator units partially clogged up with dirt?
* EGR actuator control logic has not been shut off properly.
* Ecm is reporting a lot of hours of excessive oil temps. This is typically related to excessive injection timing and excessive internal engine friction for one reason or another.
* The exhaust temp allowance settings for the engine has been screwed with and raised to 1350+F. This is not a normal thing for someone to do in the programming at all.
* intake manifold is reporting 200+F intake temps. This is not normal.
* some RPM and fuelling derates are still in place.
====================================
Welcome to the bad delete club. You won this weeks prize... it is an engine killer for sure.
Also, there are a lot of indication in the program that the intake temps are running too high. Not sure if it that after garbage cooler or not.. or maybe a clogged up CAC, A/C, Maybe partially clogged radiator.. something not allowing the intake temps to be cooled properly. .. something there is wrong. Some of the excessive heat in the engine can certainly be chocked up to that horrible injection timi9ng and turbo that cannot get out of its own way due to bad programming, but some of it may be mechanical too.
In any event the program is a bad one. It has to go. Also the front end needs a good cleaning and the intake pressure and temp sensors need replacing if they are old.. along with the exhaust gas pressure sensor over on the thermostat housing + its circuit cleaned out thoroughly. - Hopefully no one has bypassed that sensor.. that would be a bad thing too.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Badger - 06-28-2022
Well I will take care of mechanical stuff listed, the cac looks too Be an aftermarket bar and plate style, If tube and fin is preferred I will gladly switch it…
As far as fixing the tune, will you do it or am I on my own to find somebody else? It needs done so.
RE: Exhaust gas pressure limits? - Rawze - 06-28-2022
(06-28-2022 )Badger Wrote: Well I will take care of mechanical stuff listed, the cac looks too Be an aftermarket bar and plate style, If tube and fin is preferred I will gladly switch it…
As far as fixing the tune, will you do it or am I on my own to find somebody else? It needs done so.
I do not do remote tuning .. Since this is the case, and because things need to be changed while connected to the ecm live, I do not mess with 870's unless someone is here in my driveway with one. It is the 870's in particular that are like this, as all newer model engines are not.
On newer engines, Most people can just send me a file.. and I can just send it back to them 'fixed' in one way or another. The 870 however will brick:(rom-boot) the ecm if someone tries to flash back in, the file they have copied out due to data corruption when the file is copied out.
Forum member 'running rough', otherwise does sometimes do remote logins with ppl and does the 870's correctly. I got curious after seeing your program and how bad it was, and asked him (2 days ago) if he sets the RAM memory parameters properly (to prevent the derate yours is suffering from), and he said yes, he always does that too. He has done all the 870 trucks they own on his own farm himself, so he has always had a heavy interest in getting them right .. or its his own pocket that suffers.
nonetheless. I am unbiased when I review a file for someone... I don't care who made the file... even if I had done it in the past, if there is something not right, I will point it out.
If someone has any concerns on if some persons programs are ok or not then have that person e-mail a copy of what they are going to put into your truck and I will tell you if it is ok or not. If they have a problem with this then they have something bad to hide is all I can say, because there is no kind of 'special secret sauce' ... it is either safe and ok, ...or ... not.
In your case, you complain heavily about low boost and higher then normal EGT's and such.
When someone sends me a program, I can see a lot of things that the ecm is doing and reporting. I can see a lot of collected data that it has stored above just the program itself. It is clear in the program that you sent me that not only is is causing the turbo drop-back issues, which in themselves can contribute very heavily towards excessive EGT issues, but it was also clear that the program is reporting higher than normal intake temps too (a lot of above 200+F and higher intake temps in the driving history) .. and this is an indication that something in the front-end of the truck may also have issues, or the turbo is absorbing way more heat than the front end can dissipate properly .. something is wrong somewhere.
I.E.> it points towards your problems may be 2 or more issues, and not one.