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+--- Thread: Cm570 help (/showthread.php?tid=9641)
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RE: Cm570 help - Rawze - 07-11-2024
(07-10-2024 )Corzlot Wrote: What I'm curious about is the difference. I had a cm870 as a donor for another cm570, and made it work with the manifolds, head, cams, injectors, and gears in front. But that was because the 870 needed to be rebuilt. But what I'm more curious about is what would stop me from swapping over sensors and wiring and putting my 570 ECM on? They are even comparable HP ratings. And I would swap over our manifolds, turbo, and any EGR delete I would need. The 570 runs, but major mechanical issues. Would the head be different? I can't necessarily see that. If it's just EGR and emissions, what needs to be changed?
well I guess if you know nothing about cummins engines ... then they are the same right?...
sounds to me like a lot of blind assumptions and guessing on a subject that someone somewhere obviously knows absolutely nothintg about.
a CM570 has a much lower compression ratio (depending on year/model) than anything newer and it also requires less internal friction control. - I.E.> Anything that was meant for emissions IS NOT GOING TO LAST AS LONG AS IT SHOULD IF YOU GO SLAPPING A CM570 ECM ONTO IT IS LIKE A BLIND FOOL!!!...
SO THE MORON WHO SHOVED AN 870 BLOCK INTO A VEHICLE AND RAN IT WITH A 570 ECM, DOOMED IT TO HAVE HALF-ITS LIFESPAN, CUT BY NOT RUNNING IT TO WITHIN ITS NEEDS AND PROPER SPECIFICATIONS!.
FIX THE DAMNED CM570 (cheapest and easiest to do) ... OR CONVERT THE WIRING AND EVERYTHING ELSE TO FIT A NEWER MODEL ENGINE ALONG WITH THE NEWER MODEL ECM TO RUN IT WITH PROPERLY!!!
- and if it is to be fitted with a newer model engine.. Then a cm871 would be the best choice, as it has a proper electronic vgt turbo.. And not an 870 with its more wonky, air-driven, problematic turbo design.
RE: Cm570 help - Corzlot - 07-11-2024
I am asking because I don't know enough about the isx to begin with. Otherwise I would just slap the motor in like you say. But isn't that the point if questions. To get answers. I wouldn't want the vgt turbo anyway. Electronic or vacuum. I am asking what the differences are to make an informed argument for or against doing anything. I realize according to your opinion that fixing this motor would be best, and my boss says swapping motors would be best in his opinion. But what I'm trying to do is weigh options. If I can't make an 870 work, then be it. I just want to completely know why before I say I can't or can. I'm really not looking for opinions, but facts. If it's compression, injectors, pistons, cams, and timing, I could see that being a major problem. But as of right now, I don't know.
RE: Cm570 help - Corzlot - 07-11-2024
And I'm really sorry if I come out like a jerk. I'm not saying anyone has a wrong opinion. Text is so impersonal. In a perfect world, I would find a cm570 to drop in, and everyone would be happy. What I'm trying to avoid is parting out a working tractor to make this one go. It has the cm570 we need, runs very well, and has a few tractor issues, but the tractor works. It is our cheapest option and the boss wants to go that route. I want to give him options, but I can't seem to find a cm570 around here for a reasonable price. I would hate to see a working piece gutted just to make another one run. I do apologize if I seem like I don't appreciate the help.
RE: Cm570 help - Rawze - 07-11-2024
(07-11-2024 )Corzlot Wrote: I am asking because I don't know enough about the isx to begin with. Otherwise I would just slap the motor in like you say. But isn't that the point if questions. To get answers. I wouldn't want the vgt turbo anyway. Electronic or vacuum. I am asking what the differences are to make an informed argument for or against doing anything. I realize according to your opinion that fixing this motor would be best, and my boss says swapping motors would be best in his opinion. But what I'm trying to do is weigh options. If I can't make an 870 work, then be it. I just want to completely know why before I say I can't or can. I'm really not looking for opinions, but facts. If it's compression, injectors, pistons, cams, and timing, I could see that being a major problem. But as of right now, I don't know.
what I said is NOT opinion!!!>
and yes.. the injection timing, fuel-air-mix, boost requirements, .. literally everything required to run more modern engines properly is dependent heavily on engine model and its programming.
Your other statement of...
(07-11-2024 )Corzlot Wrote: ... I wouldn't want the vgt turbo anyway. Electronic or vacuum. ...
This is absolutely not a good statement. Its a clear sign that someone does not know much about how any of the modern versions of the ISX actually work. they REQUIRE IT TO RUN PROPERLY+EFFICIENTLY AND LIVE A FULL LIFESPAN - So if your h#ell bent on the style of turbo alone dictating what type engine you need, ... then like I said.. fix the 570 and be done with it.
FYI:: The VGT turbo on more modern versions of these engines IS THE VERY THING that sets the proper fuel-air-mix, keeps friction control in check, and other factors for the more modern versions of the ISX to run properly. REMOVING IT significantly shortens engine life overall,.. usually by about half or less. and if the vehicle has an engine brake then that goes to sh#it too.
What you are not understanding is that more modern engines RUN VASTLY DIFFERENTLY INTERNALLY!!! and have very different needs to run them (programming and otherwise) to get them to not end up with a very short lifespan after some yahoo slaps the wrong model engine control module onto the side of one and then proceeds to put than clunky non-vg turbo that the ecm can no longer control.
That is the stuffs of ignorant fools that like to say those things to others in the inter-webs. People who know nothing about modern diesel engine technology, and/or someone still living in the 1970's when a diesel engines had longer connecting rods, comparatively less efficient and more forgiving injection processes, and all of their other inefficient flaws. The internal combustion processes in diesel engines has VASTLY CHANGED in the last 20+ years, and a 1990's, 2007, 2011, 2013, 2017, and 2024 model engines operate vastly different from each other, internally, and the newer they get, the more of a far cry they are from something designed in the 1990's and early 2000's. <-- Those days where a diesel was a diesel ARE LONG GONE!. they may look similar on the outside.. but they are VERY VERY VERY different in their needs and how they need to run to make them operate correctly.
Your posts also seemed to imply that you are wanting someone on here to say what you want to hear, instead of pointing out the reality if it all. That is not going to happen. Around here,.. we know better.
What has been recommended has already been laid out (in earlier posts) .. and if your boss wants to 'swap to something newer', then they need to consider what that requires in total. What the benefits will be in the long term, any legal ramifications of it (as I am sure they will also want it deleted too), long term operating vs. maintenance costs ... etc. and not just some short-changed opinion.
RE: Cm570 help - Corzlot - 07-11-2024
I do appreciate that you did go into it in a little more depth. I'm definitely not trying to start any arguments. I do see that an 870 will not work, and I was trying to know why beyond "wiring". If it's possible to wire an 870 or 871 as it needs to be, what would it take? Dpf is not an option around here. And what I'm looking at is the more simple, the better. And I sure can't argue about my boss being short sighted. It's about now, not later. But I do understand the logic about fixing the 570 compared to the 870. What I was looking for was someone to say exactly what you said. Either: it will work, just switch all this, or: it won't work because the newer engine has this different on it and they aren't compatible. But you did almost fully answer the question I originally asked. I wasn't searching for someone to tell me that I'm correct. I wanted someone to tell me why my thought is wrong. I knew I wasn't correct, but wanted to know why. If it comes down to it, we do plan on pulling apart a running, working tractor(and I mean agricultural) to make it work again. But that's another short sighted view to make something happen right now instead of fixing the problem. I would rather pull the motor out, strip it down, figure out what happen, rectify the problem, put the motor back in, and have two tractors. But it's ultimately not my call. I do thank you for the information you did give me. So far your last post was the most useful information I have gotten anywhere. I still do apologize for coming off like a jerk and someone who knows nothing. The only way I find out what I don't know is research and asking people who do. And so far this forum has been the most useful one I've found out of any that I have come across.
RE: Cm570 help - tree98 - 07-12-2024
(07-11-2024 )Corzlot Wrote: so far this forum has been the most useful one I've found out of any that I have come across.
Boy ain't that the truth!!!