+- Rawze.com: Rawze's ISX Technical Discussion and more (http://rawze.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Big Truck Technical Discussion... (/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: ISX Related Help (/forumdisplay.php?fid=68)
+--- Thread: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP (/showthread.php?tid=3464)
2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - SIDE_SHOW - 08-28-2018
Hey there guys...this is my first post on here so I hope ive done it right.
So we bought a 2007 peterbilt 386 with a pullout isx in it... The fella we bought it from had it for about 3 years and the motor that was in it needed to be inframed so he did that... Well the shop that did it must have not tightened the rod caps or put a bearing in backwards becuase after 3k miles it threw a rod thru the block so he took it back to them and they said they would get a motor and put it in.... Well 6 months later they found a motor out of a wrecked truck that had "250k miles" on it supposedly... It took them another 2 months to get it put in and they did a TERRIBLE job i mean the worst installation ive ever seen... Left the intercooler loose put the hood back on without bushings left bolts loose everywhere I mean the list goes on and on.... So lets get to the issues.... So #1 I thought it was blowing oil out the exhuast becuase you drive it 5 miles and there would be oil pooled up on the manifold where #3 and 4 are.... But i found out that all that was is he bolted the hook to the block there and one of the bolt holes was pouring oil out so I can fix that... #2 when I was bringing it home about 150 miles with an empty flatbed on the water temp was up around 220 at all times and the fan stayed on the whole way... Oil temp was at like 245 or so the whole way... But I also found that the tensioner for the fan belt seemed kinda weak so im hoping that is the reson why on that...
Now the biggest #3 it is very rough at idle almost like its sucking air at idle... I did my checks by unplugging the actuators one at a time and seeing which one didnt do anything amd i found that the front timing actuator was doing very very little in fact it ran better unplugged so I went the junk yard and bought a used one and swapped it out earlier and it is maybe 10% better but its doing different things now.... It'll idle somewhat fine then it will act like its sucking air and start loping kinda and blowing white smoke for a second then it will go away and just start idling rough then it will idle ok.... High rpms it seems fine.... No check engine light and The only codes it has thrown was on the way home with it if I got in a pull it would throw the CEL and some kind of code about the ecm and it would sound like it was springing an exhuast leak all the sudden I think it was a 413 code on the little road relay readout it has in the truck but it would go away a soon as you were out of the pull.... Im at a loss as what to check next... I dont have a laptop or code reader... Someone help plz!!! And I'm sorry for beung so long winded
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - Chamberpains - 08-28-2018
Long winded is good. More details are always a help. I can't find fault code 413. Its probably the wrong number. Your truck is running hot. More than likely a thermostat problem being it didn't overheat.
As far as swapping an actuator with a junkyard one... Well you could've just put another junk one in its place. How about pulling all of them and checking them with Rawze instructions on how to? After thats confirmed good then doing an injector test or 2 wouldnt hurt. There is instructions on how to do those also on Rawze's video's or Cummins quickserve. Its free, just register you engine serial #.
It sounds like you may have bought into a real crap shoot of problems.
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - Rawze - 08-28-2018
(08-28-2018 )SIDE_SHOW Wrote: ... I did my checks by unplugging the actuators one at a time and seeing which one didnt do anything amd i found
...
Assuming it is not bad ECM programming for a moment ...
Despite where you got this idea or if anyone said to do this, You cannot check actuators on the ISX by unplugging them. It will fool you every single time into thinking you have bad actuators. I have even demonstrated this to people in the past on perfectly healthy engines.
What happens is that once it sees an actuator unplugged, the ecm randomly fails them and refuses to use 1 or more properly for several minutes even after you have plugged them back in. A mechanic will always swear there is a bad actuator because plugging it in and unplugging it will make no difference at all after the first time it is unplugged. - Whats even worse, is that it will not do this for all of them, but usually only for 1 or 2 of them at a time. The most common one for the ECM to fail, then refuse to use again for several minutes (10+ minutes sometimes) is the timing/metering actuator on the rear bank. sometimes it will do it to the front bank, sometimes it will do it to a fueling(metering) actuator.
In other words,.. it is impossible to unplug and plug back in, voltage check, etc... actuators on a running engine to troubleshoot them at all, because it is so unpredictable. I have also seen several shops in the past use this trick to sell people new actuators when you don't need them out of sheer stupidity, simply because they refuse to believe that the ECM does this.
===========================================
The proper method is to FIRST, perform a full overhead adjustment of the rockers, both on the valve train and on the injector rockers, so that you can do a proper injector leak test. The rockers need to be set FIRST before any leak test to prevent any false positives .. especially for the injector rockers ... and then use a bubble test like shown in this series of videos to find any actual bad injectors ...
(There are 3 videos in this series. watch all 3 of them).
Make sure there are no leaky injectors.
Then next is a cylinder cut-out test ...
<iframe id="lbry-iframe" width="560" height="315" src="https://odysee.com/$/embed/insite-cylinder-cutout-test-by-rawze/745408fe6eb4b6196b74d576cf52cd1d420c03a3?r=8p8MjqctPT8PafuYA5mftGueGF8L3how" allowfullscreen></iframe>
If it passes and runs good on all cylinders, yet still runs rough, the next test is to pull apart the actuators and check the shanks of the plungers for step wear...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=110&pid=619#pid619
Also there are several other things like proper overhead valve adjustment, pressure testing the engine for air, egr, and exhaust leaks , checking it for proper boost levels, etc.etc.
Also there is the fact that a bad intake pressure, exhaust pressure, egr Delta-P and other sensors can make one have low fuel mileage and act up too, but not usually rough idle. If those sensors are more than 250k miles old, they are likely in need of replacing, yet they rarely ever will throw codes for any of them.
Also, there is that an inframed engine with a re-manned head or an old head can have leaky valve seats and loosing compression. Removing all valve rockers so that all valves are closed on the head, plating off the intake manifold and pressurizing it to 30 psi... it should not loose any perssure in 10 minutes at all on a good head. - Same test for the exhaust manifold side too... plating it off and pressurizing it up.
This was all assuming you have factory programming, But here is what troubles me in your post too...
Is it demandated(deleted)?. if so, by who?. -- Sure, you may have a faulty thermostat but it usually does not include high oil temps along with it. However, bad ECM programming by those big-name delete shops will cause a lot of the same symptoms you have just described including the high oil and high radiator temps. Bad programming or incorrect programming for your ser# engine can cause a lot of internal friction and can cause those heating issues among other problems like prematurely fretting liners and causing head gaskets to eventually blow out. There are more bad programs and bad programmers out there making delete programs that a person can shake a stick at, so if it is de-mandated, I would start with getting that straightened out by one of the recommended people from here along with all the other things I just mentioned above. If you suspect programming at all, go to quickserv and look up what program is supposed to be in your engine. Then install the original factory file that matches your exact engine ser# and not some other horsepower program like a lot of dumb-arsses do. Installing the exact, correct program is very important on the CM870's especially, as there were several variations of cam lobe offsets, injector offsets, and many other hardware tweaks as they were being made based on ser# ranges and not just internal parts alone. The program must match all of the hardware offsets your ser# engine was built upon and many people do not know this about CM870's as it was not publicly avail. information. - You can always have a proper demandate program put back in it after you get it running right. Solve one problem at a time instead of over-stepping yourself and guessing in circles.
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - SIDE_SHOW - 08-29-2018
(08-28-2018 )Rawze Wrote:(08-28-2018 )SIDE_SHOW Wrote: ... I did my checks by unplugging the actuators one at a time and seeing which one didnt do anything amd i found
...
Assuming it is not bad ECM programming for a moment ...
Despite where you got this idea or if anyone said to do this, You cannot check actuators on the ISX by unplugging them. It will fool you every single time into thinking you have bad actuators. I have even demonstrated this to people in the past on perfectly healthy engines.
What happens is that once it sees an actuator unplugged, the ecm randomly fails them and refuses to use 1 or more properly for several minutes even after you have plugged them back in. A mechanic will always swear there is a bad actuator because plugging it in and unplugging it will make no difference at all after the first time it is unplugged. - Whats even worse, is that it will not do this for all of them, but usually only for 1 or 2 of them at a time. The most common one for the ECM to fail, then refuse to use again for several minutes (10+ minutes sometimes) is the timing actuator on the rear bank. sometimes it will do it to the front bank, sometimes it will do it to a fueling(metering) actuator.
In other words,.. it is impossible to use this method to troubleshoot them at all because it is so unpredictable. I have also seen several shops in the past use this trick to sell people new actuators when you don't need them out of sheer stupidity simply because they refuse to believe that the ECM does this.
===========================================
The proper method is to first do an injector leak down test ...
Make sure there are no leaky injectors. Then next is a cylinder cut-out test ...
If it passes and runs good on all cylinders, yet still runs rough, the next test is to pull apart the actuators and check the shanks of the plungers for step wear...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=110&pid=619#pid619
Also there are several other things like proper overhead valve adjustment, pressure testing the engine for air, egr, and exhaust leaks , checking it for proper boost levels, etc.etc.
Also there is the fact that a bad intake pressure, exhaust pressure, egr Delta-P and other sensors can make one have low fuel mileage and act up too, but not usually rough idle. If those sensors are more than 250k miles old, they are likely in need of replacing, yet they rarely ever will throw codes for any of them.
This was all assuming you have factory programming, But here is what troubles me in your post too...
Is it demandated(deleted)?. if so, by who?. -- Sure, you may have a faulty thermostat but it usually does not include high oil temps along with it. However, bad ECM programming by those big-name delete shops will cause a lot of the same symptoms you have just described including the high oil and high radiator temps. Bad programming or incorrect programming for your ser# engine can cause a lot of internal friction and can cause those heating issues among other problems like prematurely fretting liners and causing head gaskets to eventually blow out. There are more bad programs and bad programmers out there making delete programs that a person can shake a stick at, so if it is de-mandated, I would start with getting that straightened out by one of the recommended people from here along with all the other things I just mentioned above. If you suspect programming at all, go to quickserv and look up what program is supposed to be in your engine. Then install the original factory file that matches your exact engine ser# and not some other horsepower program like a lot of dumb-arsses do. Installing the exact, correct program is very important on the CM870's especially, as there were several variations of cam lobe offsets, injector offsets, and many other hardware tweaks as they were being made based on ser# ranges and not just internal parts alone. The program must match all of the hardware offsets your ser# engine was built upon and many people do not know this about CM870's as it was not publicly avail. information. - You can always have a proper demandate program put back in it after you get it running right. Solve one problem at a time instead of over-stepping yourself and guessing in circles.
Thank you rawze...That's good to know about the actuators... I'm young but I'm very old school I don't have any of the computers anymore since we shut our shop down... even when we had it open we rarely messed with anything newer than maybe 2003 and that was a stretch... I'm not good at diag on these newer motors as I cut my teeth on older mechanical engines BC3 AND 4 3406 A and B model... I guess I need to get with the times... I do not know if it has been De mandated I do know everything is there.... I'm gonna take it to a shop here in San Antonio thursday and have them put it on the computer and see what the ecm says... now... where can I get that leakdown tool and how much is it? The actuator I put on there was a good used one from the junk yard... I suspect a number of things being wrong but im trying to do all of this and get another truck and two trailers ready to roll by Friday... I am going down south to get the new to me 2012 Pete with a cm2250 in it... I sold my 1989 freightliner FLC WITH a 3406 b model cat in it to buy this 2007 Pete a 2012 Pete and 2 2007 reefer trailers.... hopefully I didn't make a huge mistake? I know these engines have allot of issues but from what i have heard if you tune them right and take care of them they are really good motors... oh well I guess we will see
Plz give me a part number on that leakdown tool if you can and thx again for your help I'll update you guys as soon as I do those tests
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - Waterloo - 08-29-2018
Here is the leak down test tool... Cummins part 3164001
Here is one someone is making, https://www.ebay.com/i/112973184976?chn=ps
Here is the real deal... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-KIT-INJECTOR-LEAK-TEST-3164001-/142183551336
The ebay one will more than likely work fine. There is not much to these. And some guys here were making them at one time. If I remember correctly, you will need a gasket to make these work. If the old gasket on the motor is bad, you will need a new one. You need a good seal to get an accurate reading.
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - Chamberpains - 08-29-2018
Also with the trucks you bought your going to need Cummins Insite (ver 7.6.2) and an inline 5 or 6 adapter. Ebay has lots of deals. Many of us use the chinese ones with no problems. But if you want to keep your maintenance in your hands (trust me you do) you need to get a laptop and Insite. Other than that you will certainly be throwing $$ away to incompetent stealerships and reckless mechanics.
For the cost of 3 hrs labor at most shops you can have complete control.
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - Nilao - 08-29-2018
If I remember right Rawze 3d printed one and it worked just fine...
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - Evotrucker - 08-29-2018
Ive got a cm870 also and pretty much got it for the reason it was over hauled.... also i didnt know if the truck got a delete kit on it... i didnt know jack sh%t about cummins or the truck!.
What i would do now different, is take it to a shop to pull the programming, when Uni looked at mine. He told mine was very weird but it wasnt bad, told me a couple of things that i shouldnt use whats so ever and other things to keep a eye out for it till i can pay him to fix the programming. It could be a difference between blowing the head or going trough several turbos + w.e else the shop or you want to fix thinking you are fixing the underlying issue. like rawze stresses the importance of good tunning. makes a world of difference!
Since the history of the motor is really really weird lol. id take my time on checking everything out.... you might be surprised like i was, the head bolts weren't tightened down properly " i took mine of with a simple ratcheted n socket.... ".
RE: 2007 isx cm870... PLZ HELP - SIDE_SHOW - 08-29-2018
(08-29-2018 )Chamberpains Wrote: Also with the trucks you bought your going to need Cummins Insite (ver 7.6.2) and an inline 5 or 6 adapter. Ebay has lots of deals. Many of us use the chinese ones with no problems. But if you want to keep your maintenance in your hands (trust me you do) you need to get a laptop and Insite. Other than that you will certainly be throwing $$ away to incompetent stealerships and reckless mechanics.
For the cost of 3 hrs labor at most shops you can have complete control.
What's the difference in the inline 5 and 6 adapters? Where do I get the in-site software? Any and all help here is appreciated I just picked up the 2012 today and it seems to run really really good it has 933k on it but I'm gonna start another thread on that...