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+--- Thread: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 (/showthread.php?tid=6088)
CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - tariqzai - 04-19-2020
Hi everyone, I am a small fleet owner and one of my 2012 kw T660 with 2250 (500 hp) recently died, hydro locked and blown gasket and Liner protrusion beyond limits. I have two trucks off of my fleet parked in the backyard, one 2007 Volvo with a CM870 (500HP) and other a 2010 KwT660 with CM871 engine. Someone told me I can swap the 2250 with CM870/871 (complete swap with ecm and wiring) and there are some vendors that provide the throttle pedal, motor mounts and other accessories to make it compatible with 2012 KW. Could anyone on this forum tell me if this is something possible? Thanks
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Rawze - 04-20-2020
Something does not sound right in your post to me. Possibly a mechanic blowing smoke up your arsse?. How far did the liner drop?. What did it measure?. What you describe sounds typical of only a few thousandths drop. There are hardened brass OEM 0.020" and 0.032" shimms avail for liner height corrections on the 2250's so that it can be counter-bored properly and this problem correctly and reliably repaired.
There is no way a liner suddenly dropped more than only a few thousandths before the head gasket went out. Even a 0.020" shimm is miles past whatever amount it has dropped. - If your mechanic does not know this, and the amoutn it dropped is actually only a few thou. then you best be finding a tow truck in a hurry and get the hell away from them, as nothing in that engine is likely to be re-built the right way after.
-- Sounds like the cheaper and most effective option just to fix it and go again for getting it back on the roads. Replace the head with OE, counter-bore it, overhaul kit, and go again ... Only when it is fixed,.. do it the right way so that it has its best chance to go another million on the inframe. Do all the recommended extra steps towards this ( some of those things are mentioned {HERE} ) and you will have invested your money much more wisely + get a far better return on it than simply slapping another engine in it.
- It likely can be converted over but ... Looks like your trying to justify a cheaper way out, but by the time you put all the effort and down time into the swap + straighten it out, your would have lost more money on it than simply fixing it in most cases. Not only that, but to make it legal, you will have to register it as a glider, have it emissions tested and have all the emissions systems for whatever engine you have used put on the truck too.
-- Lastly, you need to consider why it failed. -- Engines do not fail like that unless there is a reason. - Not solving the root causes is destined for you to repeat your mistakes that caused it to begin with, even if it is a different engine.
Some history on the truck/engine?, miles?, hp/torque rating?, rear ratios?, is it de-mandated (if so, by who?), type of freight hauling?, rpm range it is mostly driven in?, has it been driven right?- or are there hired drivers in it? -- etc.etc.etc.
Those are the things that come to mind (for me any ways) when reading your post.
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - tariqzai - 04-20-2020
(04-20-2020 )Rawze Wrote: Something does not sound right in your post to me. Possibly a mechanic blowing smoke up your arsse?. How far did the liner drop?. What did it measure?. What you describe sounds typical of only a few thousandths drop. There are hardened brass OEM 0.020" and 0.032" shimms avail for liner height corrections on the 2250's so that it can be counter-bored properly and this problem correctly and reliably repaired.
There is no way a liner suddenly dropped more than only a few thousandths before the head gasket went out. Even a 0.020" shimm is miles past whatever amount it has dropped. - If your mechanic does not know this, and the amoutn it dropped is actually only a few thou. then you best be finding a tow truck in a hurry and get the hell away from them, as nothing in that engine is likely to be re-built the right way after.
-- Sounds like the cheaper and most effective option just to fix it and go again for getting it back on the roads. Replace the head with OE, counter-bore it, overhaul kit, and go again ... Only when it is fixed,.. do it the right way so that it has its best chance to go another million on the inframe. Do all the recommended extra steps towards this ( some of those things are mentioned {HERE} ) and you will have invested your money much more wisely + get a far better return on it than simply slapping another engine in it.
- It likely can be converted over but ... Looks like your trying to justify a cheaper way out, but by the time you put all the effort and down time into the swap + straighten it out, your would have lost more money on it than simply fixing it in most cases. Not only that, but to make it legal, you will have to register it as a glider, have it emissions tested and have all the emissions systems for whatever engine you have used put on the truck too.
-- Lastly, you need to consider why it failed. -- Engines do not fail like that unless there is a reason. - Not solving the root causes is destined for you to repeat your mistakes that caused it to begin with, even if it is a different engine.
Some history on the truck/engine?, miles?, hp/torque rating?, rear ratios?, is it de-mandated (if so, by who?), type of freight hauling?, rpm range it is mostly driven in?, has it been driven right?- or are there hired drivers in it? -- etc.etc.etc.
Those are the things that come to mind (for me any ways) when reading your post.
Thank You Rawze, I bought this truck used in 2018. Its 2012 kw T660, 500HP and I believe 1850 Torque, 3.55 ratio 18 speed about 850K miles now. Truck max speed is 71/mph governed, loads are mostly 78-79k with reefer trailers go anywhere except CA, driver runs it mostly around 1500-1600 RPM.
Cause of engine failure; Head on this engine was replaced by the previous owner as well (Well known renting/leasing business). Truck was leased to a metal company and I believe they were hauling heavy loads, most probably it had the liner problem back then and was not checked by their shop so they might have just replaced the head and gasket. I think my mechanic said the liner on Cylinder#5 dropped down .05 from the adjacent cylinder on the passenger side of engine and he thinks it's more than what cummins recommends. Mechanic is an honest old man with decades of experience, lacking on knowledge about emission issues though.
Reason for Cheap fix; This truck will be in the fleet for at most another 2-3 years, I have the same make donor truck with CM871 engine/filters/wiring and hardware, costs me only 3-4k in labor to finish the project. CM871 has 500HP and 700k+ miles and should last for another 2-3 years.
I had problem of pushing coolant with one of my truck in the past and I got the engines swapped and turned out very cost effective but back then both those engines were CM871. I did not know about the complication of getting it registered as glider truck since the swapping engine is older now.
I am going to get a $$ estimate on replacing head/counter bore and inframe kit. Do I need to get an OEM head or the same head getting rebuilt from shop will work?
Thanks you for your advise Rawze, will update you.
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Waterloo - 04-20-2020
OEM head, NEW, not rebuilt. Heads are a one time use item. Cut and shim liners to .014 of an inch protrusion. Follow the Rawze rebuild videos and use Cummins Quickserve in regards to rebuilding. DO NOT SKIP ANY STEPS! Me and Rawze rebuilt my CM-871 in his driveway, it was done correctly, and no steps were skipped, like the dealer did 70,000 miles prior on my last in frame. $40,000 down the drain, they installed the 450st HP CM-2350 in frame kit, injectors, etc., in my 600hp CM-871 block. And don't get me started on everything they did wrong. The wrong parts were just the tip of their shoddy work. This was at a dealer, and licensed Cummins repair facility.
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Lonestar10 - 04-20-2020
Now loo you saying they put a common rail in your truck with 2350 injectors? Lol jerkin yet chain
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Waterloo - 04-20-2020
(04-20-2020 )Lonestar10 Wrote: Now loo you saying they put a common rail in your truck with 2350 injectors? Lol jerkin yet chain
Everything was wrong! LOL! They were the wrong injectors, the tiny 450st ones... We had a mix of parts installed, honestly I don't know how anyone did not catch this. Mr Hagg looked at my build sheet from the in frame and said WTF? Jerry is a sharp dude, half a second he was on this, literally that quick. ;-)
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Rawze - 04-20-2020
Sounds like it likely dropped 0.005" not 0.05" ... something still amiss there. - The pic you posted shows nothing anywhere near 0.050 worth of damage".
old mechanics w 20+ years experience.. but know nothing about modern engines and their emissions systems scares me a lot. Those days and methods are long gone and it is those type of mechanics that do not do things that are needed for these engines to be right. - I would not trust him to throw a wrench at him.
ALSO -- one look at that pic of that engine ... YOUR MECHANIC IS A NASTY F$$KING PIG! ...NO FRIGGING WAY I WOULD TRUST AN A-HOLE WHO YANKED THE HEAD OFF MY TRUCK AND DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO CLEAN THE OIL OUT THE TOP OF THE HEAD OR ANYTHING ELSE FIRST! -- BAD HABITS,.. BAD PRACTICES... NO SENSE OF PROPER CLEANLINESS ... THAT PHOTO SCREAMS ALL OF IT AT YOU!
- I see it right back in the same boat in another year or 2... just like the first time around... and you will be blaming the equipment instead of others lack of proper knowledge and methods.
Unless the guy is willing to do EVERY SINGLE RECOMMENDATION mentioned on here ... here is likely your future with it ...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=4797&pid=41315#pid41315
it is un-believable how willing others are trusting of SI$IT-SHOW, half-arssed, in0a hurry mechanics these days!. .. take it or leave it, I am just calling it like I see it so far. Maybe you will wake the f$uck up and start questioning this guy and his methods instead of taking the side-car and shoving your issues onto him blindly before dropping $20,000 on a half-arssed, hurry-up job!
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Signature620 - 04-21-2020
Make sure the oil galleries get plugged ASAP and change your coolant when it's back together. Looks like it's been running on plain water.
RE: CM2250 Swap with CM870/871 - Unilevers - 04-22-2020
just for reference i cut a ISX to 309 thou (literally the entire area from the counterbore ledge to the oring narrow) and had custom stainless shims made and it has been running fine at 500/1850 for 6 months now. It had a crack in the counterbore ledge and we just kept cutting until it was gone and thats how deep it was.
Cummins says it wont work but it is just fine.