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RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - Printable Version

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RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - Hermjeji - 01-27-2021

CM2250, ISX600, victim(not really, was expected). Fuel pump changed out under warranty about 5 years ago. Now... main bearing #2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are gone. Not investigated further prior to writing this.

Live in beautiful BC (Vancouver) and operate local dumps. Trucks loaded 32 tonnes (70,000 lbs for your down south). Been following and reading up on everything, here's a summary:

1. Knew I was buying a ticking time bomb, basically got 35k off the truck. So solid deal and understood this would happen. 800k, 20K hours.
2. The one person who is remotely an option to do this build, is a logistical nightmare for me (kid on the way, house under repairs, the wonders of COVID, etc.) plus with the other 4 trucks i'm staying on top of. (me and my pop handle this, him and I run 2, and 3 have been trusted to strangers who like the same whiskey I do). 2 are ISX, (this and a CM2350 we've had since new), the other 3 are good ol purring kitties. 32k hours and 1.2 million km on those (knock on wood). So the truck got towed to a shop that i'm not overly cheery about, but the guy here who knows his shi#t is occupied for a month.
3. My options:
a. Used block, complete out-of-frame, keep system mandated (there's a campaign out for a new SCR? S/N 79622428. (~30-40k CAD)
b. re/re with a C15 (6NZ or twin depending on availability) (unknown cost, still looking into it, but i would guess 40k?)
c. Re/Re with brand new from Cummins (reduces risk of the potential issues with a build, and i get all new everything, (50-55k)
d. Option A but with demandate. Problem is it'll probably be done wrong wrt. programming, but wonder if it can be adjusted and reflashed over this forum and myself going into it.

Not looking for hoses or extra umph, just a workhorse, on this truck we pull 120k lbs on the regular.


RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - JimT - 01-27-2021

anything used you are always going to run the risk that something is wrong with it. Not saying there is, just that the risk is there even if it's been gone through. so even if the initial investment is less for a used engine there's a chance that it will need additional work bringing the overall cost closer to new...

but, you have to weigh the higher initial cost of a new engine with the expected lifetime return when coupled with the already used truck. Will the rest of the truck last long enough to justify the new engine?

Personally, I'd stick with the same engine so you don't need to worry about any rewiring. A 2350 is still fairly new that another 10 years down the line parts should still be readily available, however 10 years from now who know what the market will be like for that 6nz or even the C15. Not to mention potential fuel savings that a newer engine *might* offer.

As for mandate/demandate. That should depend on your business, location and needs. Local dump work might be more pleasant without the mandate, but maybe local government interaction might not? As far as getting it done right, I don't see that as a deciding factor since you probably already know where to turn (only someone recommended by rawze ).

Now, my personal opinion, if I was in your position I'd probably look at option C if I had the money. Otherwise option A or D, depending on other contributing factors.

There's also Option E: Sell the truck as-is or for parts and buy something else. Could end up being more cost effective depending on your situation.

My 2 cents, not that it's worth much...

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - Rawze - 01-27-2021

If the engine can be saved, just have it built right instead of what some shop wants to do. ... your paying them, not the other way around. Find someone willing to do the things to it and take the extra steps that are recommended here and it will live a long happy life again.
ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=6428&pid=56299#pid56299

A proper de-mandate can be made for it no problem... Just gotta stay far away from the moron tuning idiots that are on every street corner and have whatever is done reviewed by emailing the program to me for safety and correctness before dumping it in the engine.

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - JMBT - 01-27-2021

Option B: 100%, 6NZ is a great motor! Older would even be better, 2WS if possible and you’ll never have to worry about it again. Or if you want to stay red nothing newer then an N14. If you go Cat don’t do the twin turbo acert it is a disaster. However if you can find someone to build it, some guys, my brother included have taken the newer Acert block and mated it to a 6NZ single turbo head. This creates a truely bulletproof motor that can produce just about any HP rating (within reason) that you could want, while retaining reliability.

The takeaway....all the new motors are crap. The older technology gives better power, and much, much better reliability, at the cost of a little worse fuel economy.

I know many will disagree with me but that’s my two cents, based on 22years of in the field experience.

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - Hermjeji - 01-29-2021

So, an update. It was the fuel pump of death for sure.

These are the revised costs:
1. C15 6NZ - 50K
2. ISX600, used block, reman head (a new head is apparently 6 weeks away, any thoughts on if this is BS or not?), genuine ISX kit, new fuel pump, used crank, between 38-45. Depends on the turbo, the truck has an approx. 3 year old turbo on it, stock turbo. He said he'd check out the turbo (and I will get a second opinion on it, and a few more from here hopefully). Reman head from Cummins, if checked out for flatness, sounds like an acceptable compromise, vs. waiting 6 weeks or more - is there a way to cover the base here with a Reman or is the advice quite literal that they are total garbage?.
3. ISX600, new - 55k (installed) (+20k core, but he's working to get a coreless engine [ie. the Peterbilt dealership will take the core and manage that end of it]

I want to keep the emissions system in tact, and go more through the forum and get it done proper if i do want a delete. This way, I keep the same flash as the original ECM, nothing is tampered with from that respect.

I am a through and through Cat believer, but the comments here are very valid. I am leaning towards option 2.

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - Waterloo - 01-29-2021

A used head will fail in short order, do not waste the money, plenty of posts regarding these reman heads. They are garbage, an ISX head is a one time use only and throw it away. It is not the flatness, as ISX heads rarely if ever fail. It is the liners that ruin them when they cut loose. And then there are so many intricacies involved in restoring these heads, it really is not possible. You are just throwing an old worn out head with some new shiny bits on the motor, as the damage that is there is honestly not repairable.

But, more times than not, Cummins sells new heads as remans, the dirty little secret few if any dealers will tell you. You will have to check the welded code at the back of the head. If it starts with RX, it is a reman and should be avoided. Also, reman heads come in skinny crates, new heads come in big crates. So, make sure you check that number before purchasing. Open the crate and physically check that number.

I would not even attempt to put a 6NZ in that truck, all of the electrical/cab issues and so on, not worth it in my book. And I do like that motor, it is bullet proof, but is not intended to go into a modern EPA truck. Here is what I would do...

If it were me, and you are going to source a block, I would go with the CM-871, and build it myself. That means cutting the ledges to .014 in regards to liner height, and go from there. New head, the correct OEM in frame kit, new injectors, etc. This is a less complicated motor, and when rebuilt properly will go one million miles plus. No fuel pumps to worry about or other issues with the fuel system. It should drop right in and I would think would wire up fairly easy to the cab, may have to swap some pins around, etc. Others have done it, so it is doable. And if you want to delete, it is very easy to do, I did mine in the driveway back in 2014. I can send you the newest version.

As far as the ECM, I do not believe it would be that difficult to get the correct factory program in it, but that is a question best answered by Rawze or one of the guys here that have done such swaps. I would rather put up with the headache of going with a CM-871 swap vs having to live with another ticking time bomb that you are replacing. You have already been through it once, twice would really suck.

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - tree98 - 01-29-2021

Yeah like Loo said, stay away from reman or aftermarket heads. It's been thoroughly discussed on here more than once, never ends well. It would be cheaper for you to spend the $55K on the new engine than to use a reman head and have to tear it back down and re do it in short order.
And like he mentioned sometimes you can get a new head sold as a reman, just ask to see the part number on it. You want NX not RX

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - Hermjeji - 01-29-2021

Thanks folks. Likely going down the rebuild line (swapping to an older motor is in the 60k range, and in terms of resale... there are no dumps in BC that really have this swap [at least what i am aware of]). Dollars are rising on the new build, official quote from Peterbilt is at 55k + taxes on the motor.

Talked to cummins about ordering new head vs reman. NX is no longer available according to them. RX is 8500, brand new is 10,000. Catch is, brand new i have to pay 1K additional to unreserve it and then it'll be shipped here from Michigan, where they have a total of 4 available. For 2,500 it seems like a no brainer BUT. To Waterloo's point, if the RX is in stock here, i could gamble on ordering it and opening it up (if it says NX i'm golden, if it says RX, i return and I lose a few days.).

RE: RIP CM2250, 2013, 800,000km 20,000 hrs - JimT - 01-31-2021

I assume you're talking CAD and not USD. Not sure what the current exchange rate is, but over the summer when I ordered a used head (received and installed a new one), the cost difference was about $800 USD, which in the grand scheme of things isn't a huge price difference when you're already spending about $5000 USD. I pretty much thought along the same lines as you, after talking to the person ordering the parts I figured to try ordering a reman and see what comes in the box.