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2350 - Help with stationary high load application - CTS2021 - 05-14-2021
Hello all,
I have a few 2350 trucks that operate in a de-mandated regime for off highway oilfield work.
The application is that these units are designed to direct CM2350 engine power through an Allison 4700 OFS and "split-box" which disconnects the drive axles and sends power to the pump. The units will be on a jobsite for 1-48 hours, and drive these pumps at low to high load, through the non-overdrive gears of the Allison and varying engine speeds.
My issue is that the new units I've build with the 2350 are making dramatically less power at the pump, which is measured by math using the maximum flowrate and pressure it will generate. Using this method my 565/1850 rating is only resulting in 325 hp at the pump, whereas older 2007 Acert C15 550 hp units will be making 450 hydraulic horsepower, reliably and for 20,000+ hours. They all get adequate cooling through big radiators and generally have zero issues with heat rejection while working under load, and have minimal losses to the auxiliary hydraulics (which are identical between older Cat and newer X15 units).
Can anyone give me some advice on the best way to improve the performance of the power unit on these trucks while avoiding the "bad de-mandated" list? I want to ensure my EGT's and overall 2350 remains happy, and am aware that I may trade some ultimate engine durability and reliability at the expense of this. The rub is I will lose customers and market share if I can't provide units which will meet customer expectations like my older trucks.
Local shops in EDM-AB-CAN sound like they belong on the "Bad" list. One has suggested a demandate, but admitted they keep EGR active to "ensure EGTs remain low". And another suggested demandate, plus removing factory VGT for a Large Boss turbo and intake system.
Any and all advice welcome, thank you Rawze for you and your helpful forum.
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - Waterloo - 05-14-2021
I'm confused by your first statement, are the trucks de-mandated or are they still stock units with all of the emissions intact? And the only proper tune for those trucks, either Mr Hagg or RunningRough, who is up your way. There are no shops doing proper delete up in your neighborhood that I know of.
The PTO issues, this is one for Rawze or Mr Hagg...
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - Rawze - 05-14-2021
first of all... a red motor is not a yellow motor.. they are completely different beasts.
The Red engines will make every bit of what they are advertised to do ... so it is a matter of the correct application for them, the correct RPM range, and other factors.
You did not mention the RPM that these engines are turning under operarting load. This is very important.
You also did no mention what Insite or other software says about the throttle position, fuel flow, boost, load, rpm, etc. when operating, or anything else.
Also, what is the engine ser# (ESN#) and what is the program installed into them (assuming perhaps it is still factory programming at this time)?.
You also did not mention if these engine are alreay deleted (de-mandated)... as most all delete programs... especially out of that region you live in are beyond horrible and destructive for those red engines. your post implies they are not yet.. and this is likely good because you have mentioned the horrible suggestions of some of those shops who tell you garbatge like removing the VG turbo.. THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO DO TO AN ISX, ESPECIALLY A CM2350 .. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!!.. and anyone who would be quick to suggest it is an absolute engine killing idiot!
STOP listening to morons at those terrible shops your dealing with.. they likely also want several thousands of $$$ to rip you off in the process too.. they are out to take advantage of you, just like most of their other victims... and get real defensive when someone calls them out of their incompetence and bad practices.
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - CTS2021 - 05-14-2021
Thanks for the quick responses guys.
One of the ESNs: 80186307
These X15 units my question refers to are bone stock but operate in an offroad environment and de-mandating is acceptable.
The pump performance test I am quoting the HHP numbers from puts them at 1650 rpm, all things being equal. We cannot exceed 1650 rpm in the field as that is all our hydraulic system will happily accept over long periods of time.
I will work on getting Insite for real datalogging, but for the time being the remote throttle request is maxed and engine load will not go over about 90% on the in-dash readout. And for what it's worth they also will never exceed ~90% on that readout on the offroad movement from site to site.
The nature of the work is that we don't get to choose what RPM we work at, it is operation specific and we try our best using the Allison and 1:1/2:1 box to put the engine in the ideal operating window.
Given the constraints I am working with, I guess to be clear my goal is that I'd like to find the best tuner/shop out there to increase the performance (in the right way) across the entire RPM window.
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - Rawze - 05-14-2021
(05-14-2021 )CTS2021 Wrote: Thanks for the quick responses guys.
One of the ESNs: 80186307
These X15 units my question refers to are bone stock but operate in an offroad environment and de-mandating is acceptable.
The pump performance test I am quoting the HHP numbers from puts them at 1650 rpm, all things being equal. We cannot exceed 1650 rpm in the field as that is all our hydraulic system will happily accept over long periods of time.
I will work on getting Insite for real datalogging, but for the time being the remote throttle request is maxed and engine load will not go over about 90% on the in-dash readout. And for what it's worth they also will never exceed ~90% on that readout on the offroad movement from site to site.
The nature of the work is that we don't get to choose what RPM we work at, it is operation specific and we try our best using the Allison and 1:1/2:1 box to put the engine in the ideal operating window.
Given the constraints I am working with, I guess to be clear my goal is that I'd like to find the best tuner/shop out there to increase the performance (in the right way) across the entire RPM window.
1650 is where you want that engine to run under high load applications. It will last its longest there.. so, at least you have the right rpm for the engine.
As far as the engine goes. According to that ser#, your supposed to have program HD10389 in it. That program is advertised at 565HP/1850 torque. Here is the actual torque curve of that program however...
[attachment=7787]
(right click and choose "view Image" for a larger picture).
As can bee seen in the screen shot, at 1650RPM, it is programmed to produce 532 Horsepower to the flywheel.
90% throttle would be roughly 477-478 Horsepower output to the flywheel.
- Lag in the gearing accounts for up to about 12% - 15% of the engine output, so this puts it at roughly 405 - 420~ish HP out of the gearbox and into the hydraulic system.
- Now you must account for lost heat (friction) in the drive-line/gearbox, etc. and in the hydraulic system.. and your likely not too far off from what you estimate.
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - Rawze - 05-14-2021
- Factory Program HD10400 is 100% compatible with that engine. It is advertised at 605-HP / 2050 Ft.lbs.
- Just have the engine flashed with this factory program. here is the profile of program HD10400 ...
[attachment=7788]
(right click and choose "view Image" for a larger picture).
At 1650 RPM, it reaches 570HP output, and this is considerably higher than the HD100398 program at the same RPM.
Any stealers$it can flash this for ya, no need for anyone special if the thing is not deleted.
- Lastly... If your considering de-mandating it (delete) .. it is not a matter of "who's better than who" or "who's cheaper than who"... it is a matter of the fact that more than 99% of all de-mandate programming is absolutely horrible and with a high load application like your describing.. YOU WILL ABSOLUTELY DESTROY THAT ENGINE IN VERY SHORT ORDER if you get a bad delete program in it. Do not sday you were not properly warned... those shops where you live are absolutely horrible and the bigger the name on the building.. the more horrible they are.
BAD DELETE PROGRAMMING IS THE NORM, NOT THE EXCEPTION!!! ... Here is some reading for your education...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1558&pid=13255#pid13255
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - Rawze - 05-14-2021
What I would like to know.. is if 600+ horsepower engine is just barely enough to make your application work... WHY THE H$ELL DID SOMEONE UNDER-SPEC THE ENGINE??? --- YOU SHOULD HAVE A 16 LITRE OR SOMETHING BIGGER!!.
Something just does not seem quite right about what you have posted ... something smells a bit off-color there... something smells a bit fishy.
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - CTS2021 - 05-14-2021
Thanks for the info.
Nothing is "fishy" here, the Allison is a non negotiable requirement in this application, and this the most powerful engine combination available from Kenworth at the time of ordering. The 2050 torque was not available because the Allison is rated to 1950 in this application, that includes pleading with KW engineering to make it happen. If I could put an 18L Cummins in from the factory and an Allison behind it, I would because my fluid pumps will take 1000 HP all day long.
Also, the application works good as is, but the power we can generate allows us to charge more for our service. More power at the pump means the truck makes more money.
I will consider the 605 file as a good option, I would also like to talk to RunningRough or Hagg about what's the next step beyond, or anyone else you might recommend.
RE: 2350 - Help with stationary high load application - Rawze - 05-14-2021
here is what the typical EGR delete program looks like to someone with a trained eye.,..