| Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins |
| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #10 | |||
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| RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins How does thst "dpf keep warm" cycle affect fuel consumption and reliability? There has to be usage of more fuel to make more heat and also to get higher coolant temperatures faster injection timing gets advanced so more heat stays in engine shortening the lifespan of oil and internals. Another misconception is that all and newer diesels smoke and the cans themselves are there to take care of the black smoke. That is not correct, modern diesel engine even without any cans should not produce any visible smoke at all! If it is then it is faulty, that is it. If the engine is not running right then the cans will get "plugged up" quite fast. You need to get the engine running properly whether or not you decide to mandate'd it. Have you cleaned the egr cooler? Egr piping? Visually inspected delta-p sensor, IMAP, back pressure sensor for carbon/soot plugging? Pressure sensors can get worn and start to read incorrectly. It is very very common for IMAP, back pressure sensor, egr delta p, dpf differential pressure sensor to read correct value with engine off at that case 0, but when there is engine running and pressure the pressure scale is off. IMAP and back pressure sensor are the most important ones, considering that you have many trucks there just buy new ORIGINAL IMAP and back pressure sensor and compare the readings. If they were ok then keep sensors as spare. Constant regens can be due to dpf differential sensor readings being off. 3 year old 140 000 mile mx13 paccar had worn out IMAP, that caused all sorts of regen and scr issues. Truck went to official dealer for issues, but they looked up fault codes for dpf and scr - replaced nox sensors etc with no help... There was no fault code for IMAP, but the sensor was plugged and when it is plugged with soot then it is time to replace, official repair guidelines also tell that when sensor is plugged do not attempt to clean, just replace. Pull the sensors and post pictures here for review if you do not want to "parts cannon" repair. I had a 2.0tdi Volkswagen that did 6l/100km on highway, after replacing the differential pressure sensor with properly working one the fuel consumption dropped to 5l/100km because it was not constantly regening dpf. On topic of parts cannon cost - there are two 25tonne excavators, same year make model, same work, even when switching operators one machine gets 8-9l/h fuel consumption, other one has 13-14l/h consumption. Machines work 5 days per week 10 hours a day so 1000 liters of diesel is cost of machine running wrong. New sensors, baking the cans will pay back fast. | |||
| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #11 | |||
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RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins (04-30-2025 )Fleetman13 Wrote: ... (just a general warning about those types of programs)... FIRE TRUCK PROGRAMS ARE NOT WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO!!!!>... I SAID SIMILAR SHUTDOWN SETTING ONLY .,.. NOT THE WHOLE DAMN PROGRAM CHANGED OUT!!!. NEVER EVER PUT A FIRETRUCK PROGRAM IN A COMMERCIAL ENGINE!!!/.. THOSE PROGRAMS ARE DESIGNED TO COMPLETELY ABUSE THE ENGINE AT ALL COSTS INCLUDING DUMPING IN FULL FUEL AND EATING THE ENGINE UP TO PIECES SO THAT A COLD FIRETRUCK FROM SITTING ALL NIGHT, ETC.. CAN GO BALLS TO THE WALLS ON A FIRE CALL.. EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF THE ENGNE!!... THOSE PROGRAMS ARE DESTRUCTIVE OVER TIME!... AND FIRE TRUCK ENGINES LIVE A SHORT LIFE BECAUSE OF IT!. ======================================== (04-30-2025 )Fleetman13 Wrote: ... That 'cummins school training' is a curse, not a blessing. It is that complete garbage 'official training' crap that is the whole problem, and has been for years now. (With regard to CPL)... What those blind-man training manuals and idiot instructors don't tell you .. is that even within the same damn CPL programs ... (CPL=engine internals code, for those reading) ... is that many of those programs are NOT compatible with each other. .. You cannot put a damn program that was meant for a prostar/cascadia into a KW-W900 truck!> ... Even if the CPL numbers are the damn exact same!!!. .. and that tiny bit of bulls#it data that Insite shows about the programs listed is just that.. Incoherent nonsense, .. and does not tell you ANYTHING WHATSOEVER on how compatible those programs might be with each other. .. THERE IS A REASON that there are 300+ different programs just for one model/year engine.. and it is not because of internals!. I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF ENGINES A YEAR THAT I SEE THAT HAVE THE WRONG DA$MN PROGRAM IN THEM.. JUST BECAUSE SOME COMPLETE IDIOT AT A STEALERS$#IT SOMEWHERE shoved the wrong da$mn program into a truck just because 'IT WAS THE SAME CPL' in attempts to maybe 'Up the HP/torque', or change some feature, etc... ONLY FOR IT TO CAUSE MAJOR ISSUES LATER ON for the truck owner... BECAUSE THINGS LIKE ... THE ENTIRE CHARGE AIR FLOW SYSTEM WAS TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE with that make/model truck, and now its costing the guy $8,000 a year more in extra fuel due to mysterious mpg losses that no one can figure out, + slowly its eating the engine up. A fine example of this is that Prostar vs. the kw-w900 comparison. That CAC in the prostar is only roughly only about 2 foot tall and sits ABOVE the radiator. - Its restrictive as all hj$ell, .. vs. that KW-W900 with its huge front end, and its 4.5 inch intake piping, and a CAC with ZERO restrictions, that is a big as the whole damn front of the truck. - You put that prostar program into that KW,.. and its turbo over-spool city. Put that KW program into that prostar, and it will have acdel issues and the turbo will always be lazy. Also you will get ghost fuel mileage losses on both trucks. - ALL because the CPL and other BS data in Insite shows the same. THINGS LIKE having constant turbo issues.. because the program was meant for a DIFFERENT MODEL TURBO (such as heavy haul 36mm vs. fuel efficient 34mm models), and the thing is now over-spooling all the time, and its now eating turbos like candy. THINGS LIKE the wrong aftertreatment modules in the program now vs. what is installed on the vehicle.. and now, its a constant battle of DPF and other issues. .. the list goes on and on. -- THE ONLY WAY to tell if a program is actually compatible wiuth a specific make/model vehicle ... AND ITS ENGINE ... is to convert BOTH programs, 100% into plain damn English.. all 30,000+ adjustments, etc.. and and see what is actually different about them using professional tools meant for this. Otherwise, your just pis$ing in the dark and likely creating issues for someone that might not even show up right away., Here is an article that I wrote about this in detail several years ago: I suggest that you read it carefully. ref: https://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?...pid=1#pid1 MY ADVICE for people in general who have had 'official training' and have suffered all the bulls#it brainwashing that those cummins schools training centers has done to them ... ... >> Is to STOP being the problem.. and learn to do things right instead. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW how that engine actually works ... all the things that they don't want you to know... hang out here and you will learn it. User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
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| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #12 | |||
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| RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins I attained four day course on heavy equipment diagnostics and service at a trade school that teaches that kind of stuff. I was dissapointed to say at least.. During the lecture part I mentioned things talked about here, for what is EGR used (it is not "reburning" exhaust gas !!!) for, what is the difference between cdi, pcci, hcci. At least the lecturer did not argue with me about those things at all and looked like he seemed to grasp things. Until came the workshop part of the class. There was no diagnostic scan tool at that trade school. Well actually, there was but they had no idea how to use it and therefore did not show us. The lecturer was telling how good were the machines that are now 30-50 years old, I told that as a hobby or leisure project yes you can play with them, but if you have to work and earn a living, hard to break the news but for that usage scenario these machines belong to the scrap yard especially due to high costs of fuel, low power, hard to get quality parts, old parts are remanufactured countless times already and are not lasting. New original parts for old machines are not made anymore, aftermarket parts for 30-50 year old equipment around here are total garbage. Few weeks ago I spoke with the guy who works at Paccar training dealership mechanics. He told that it is quite sad how undertrained dealership mechanics are and people just do not care. Oh well, he kept telling that in Russia and at developing countries there are exact same trucks/engines that in the US, AUS, Europe, but those do not have any emissions or any EGR (no DPF, SCR I absolutely believe, EGR highly doubt, even Toyota Hilux meant for "no emissions" countries still has DOC and EGR). Next time I see him I will bring up the topic of Paccar PX-9 engine, maybe even show him software parameters, maps and stuff for review in plain english text file. Engine wise talking mentioned him about crankshafts getting bent, main caps getting distorted if you take way more power out of an engine than it is designed for. Well reply was, that good engine builder knows and can sort out stuff so reliability is not a problem. There are physical limits out there and exceeding the factory power output by 2-3 times will come with huge costs reliability wise. The problem is quite grandiose - most people fixing things do not have a genuine interest and also lack pride in their workmanship and are too ignorant to learn how things exactly work, on the other hand most people training others are usually doing that because they lack the competence to work on that field. There is lack of instructors and teachers therefore it is easy to find job. Not everybody is like that, but the majority is that way. Actually there has been somebody who for the almost last 15 years has talked on forums about how to get a truck engine running properly, how to keep dpf, egr systems running healthy, what to look for deletes to ensure proper engine life and reliability, the same person has also hanged around on those "tuning" sites (where people messing up ecm software usually hang) trying to educate and promote discussion, but has been banned on almost every trucking or tuning related forum for some reason. The amount of bad information out there is enormous, to make matters worse the amount if ignorant people thinking that they know everything and are not willing to accept by any means that they may be wrong is also enormous. Some people refuse to learn after repeated failures and just keep on blaming others - modern engines are weak, materials soft and so on. Lots of people are ignorant and refuse to read the manual and even when they read they fail to apply things listed there especially when talking engine rebuilds. When talking about mandate´d most of those so called experts on ecm tuning believe that by eliminating bunch of fault codes is the way how (BAD) deletes are done. Most have zero clue about engine mode selection, mandatory timing changes to ensure longevity, controlling the turbocharger. Most tell that they have done loads and loads, engines run more than million miles without any issues. In reality if exhaust is emptied for proper flow and no heat traps + egr is blanked physically then the boost levels are too high for engine operating now. At idle diesel does not need boost, most bad deletes are overspooling the turbocharger. What is more the usual driver, just wants to get rid of the CEL and does not care about reliability. It is hard to explain to some fleet owner that you MUST clean sensors yearly, bake the cans every two years, clean egr piping and cooler. Even though this maintenance helps to lower fuel consumption, the amount of downtime due to all kinds of aftertreatment issues as you see proper maintenance is cheaper in the long run than dealing with the aftermath. | |||
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| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #13 | |||
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RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins (05-01-2025 )mikkhh Wrote: How does thst "dpf keep warm" cycle affect fuel consumption and reliability?It’s not constantly extra fuel…just when it’s in a regen process. If you get the vehicle under 5 mph it will kick the regen out UNLESS you enable temp stabilization in the ECM. If there is a fuel usage difference it would have to be minimal but it’s only during the regen cycle that it’s injecting extra fuel. Because the 6.7 Cummins doesn’t have a DPF injector like an ISX just has the DEF injector in the decomp tube. So it injects extra fuel on you exhaust stroke to heat up your DOC and DPF. As far as longevity on the engine the only we’ve get decal that has had the parameter set in the ECM for years and are still on the original internals with the original turbos as well. We rarely replace a whole turbo. We usually have a turbo issue after a cooler shits the bed and it flushes all the trapped soot back from the intake through the turbo causing the VGT vanes to get stuck either all the way shut or all the way open sometimes stuck in the middle | |||
| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #14 | |||
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RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins (05-01-2025 )Rawze Wrote: ,,, I’m not saying that cummin training isn’t a crock of shi#t. They’re in the business to make money. I am by no means “brainwashed” on what they sell I have a mind of my own and am well aware of how Cummins tells you to do their procedures. It’s nice to mainly be able to use quick serve to look up part number and being able to have the service manual available for every ESN built by Cummins for torque specs and so on. I will say if your new to the diesel world Cummins training will help you with the basics but as a mechanic you have to have a mind of your own and realize that a lot of these diagnostic trees while having hit and miss info can give you somewhat of an idea on how a component works if your completely clueless, for example a DEF injector is supposed to dose out .3 of a gallon of DEF an hour or at least on a 6.7 some stuff is helpful but if they told you how all their stuff worked then they’d make next to no money on their parts because it would keep people from slamming a DPF on one ever so often when in reality there’s a very good chance you have sooted up EGR ports. With enough experience you can drive one and tell if the EGR ports are stopped up cause there is a sluggish feeling to the engine or it will regen every 3 engine hours that’s where having the ability to look at advanced ECM data will separate experience from anything else. | |||
| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #15 | |||
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RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins (05-01-2025 )Fleetman13 Wrote: ... It sounds to me like your on the right road with this stuffs anyways.. but have somewhat reached your limits as to what you can see and do. It also sounds to me like you are ready to also upgrade what you know, leaning towards the realm of 'what they don't want you to know'. Your posts imply that you have a need to start getting your feet deeper into the water and into using Calterm to greatly increase your working knowledge of these engines + advance your troubleshooting abilities. To start to see what is actually going on behind the scenes. The stuffs that the kinder-garten level of tool (known as Insite) is not showing you. The Insite software only shows you less than 3% of whats actually going on when trying to troubleshoot one of these red engines, and keeps the typical repair mechanic completely blindfolded. The things like what actual engine operating mode that the engine is selecting, and why, ... and what the emissions system state currently is, and that the Aux. emissions systems are doing, + and all the things needed to actually troubleshoot an engine fully. All the stuff that Insite simply will not show you. -- That part of things is what the mumble voice-chat server is for... ref: https://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?...8#pid83648 User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
| 05-01-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #16 | |||
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RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins (05-01-2025 )Rawze Wrote:(05-01-2025 )Fleetman13 Wrote: ... Absolutely I’m all about gaining knowledge. I’m working on getting the calterm…I see you all speak highly of it of I’m anxious to see the limitations of the program. If I can’t get it going I may pm you for some help in the near future | |||
| 05-05-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #17 | |||
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| RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins About "parts cannon approach" and egr tuneup. Red 15l truck engines are not common in my areas, but MX13 is very common here and I know what MX13 maintenance guidelines are. Since they have similar types of aftertreatment and emissions systems it makes for a good example of service intervals and what needs to be done to keep those systems and engine running properly. OFFICIAL factory service procedures list the need for EGR TUNEUP (some stuff annually some every 80 000 miles)! https://partsandservice.kenworth.com/img...e_REVJ.pdf If link does not open search for " PACCAR MX-13 Maintenance Guidelines " . dpf doser injector looks exactly like the one from ISX. It is mentioned that def and dpf doser injector have to be cleaned ANNUALLY. Egr cooler clean at 80 000 miles, engine related sensors also check/clean or replace when needed at 80 000 miles interval! They even have manuals where are those sensors located, when to replace, when to clean (NOTICE - DO NOT CLEAN THOSE SENSORS USING SOLVENTS OR WATER). Search for - " EPA2013 and Newer Air Management Sensor Inspection Guide " and - "Air Management Sensor Locations PACCAR MX-13, EPA-13 Engine" For red engines there are EGR tuneup videos, lots of articles also on this forum MUST READ ARTICLES https://rawze.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=38 MUST READ ARTICLES https://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=34 - how to perform EGR tuneup Even if somebody lives in a place where all those mandate issues can be taken care off for good, engine sensors MUST be working properly to ensure fuel efficient and reliable operation. Also properly mandate'd modern diesel engine must not produce any visible clouds of smoke even on full acceleration, if it is then it is FAULTY. | |||
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| 05-05-2025, (Subject: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins ) Post: #18 | |||
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RE: Full de-mandate on a 15 litre Cummins (05-05-2025 )mikkhh Wrote: About "parts cannon approach" and egr tuneup. Appreciate the intel man! I’ll give it a read and go from there. I’ve heard the paccars are pretty similar to a Cummins but never worked on one or even seen one for that matter! Cummins and Cats are the rage in my area at least in the truck industry | |||
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