My Pete rebuild

[Nostalgic]

(05-26-2019 )Rawze Wrote:  

(05-26-2019 )Nostalgic Wrote:  With the engine still running, I unplugged the timing actuator and the sounds went away. Pluggin back in they came back.
...

never ever ever do this!.

you want to cut out an actuator,.. use insite and cut out cylinders (3 at a time).

Because I'm me, I have to ask, why? Other than possibly loading the ECM pulse circuit, I can't see anything detrimental, and a case with a bad plug/contact would be more severe?

[Unilevers]

the ecm has a flaw with the Actuator fault logic. It gets kinda whacky when your unplugging and plugging in actuators and you cannot prove that that is the culprit because some engines will stay in the derate even with the actuator plugged back in and have no codes. Some wont start firing the rear bank again even after 10+ minutes of run time after its plugged back in.

If you want to isolate cylinders, do it in insite. Dont do it by plugging and unplugging actuators.

uni

[Rawze]

(05-26-2019 )Nostalgic Wrote:  Because I'm me, I have to ask, why? Other than possibly loading the ECM pulse circuit, I can't see anything detrimental, and a case with a bad plug/contact would be more severe?

Has nothing to do with any type of "electrical aspect" of it whatsoever,.. - It is a software problem in the ECM with regards to the actuators AND with the fuel shutoff solenoid sometimes. and always has been!!!

Becuase the ECM has software problems with regards to actuators, failing them, derates that refuse to go away / get stuck in the ram memory, sometimes even after they are working again, and other problems. MANY TIMES IT WILL NOT EVEN THROW A CODE WHEN IT GETS HUNG UP-- IT SIMPLY REFUSES TO OPERATE THEM CORRECTLY!!!!! -- I already explained it in this post that you should never do this ...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...3#pid39233


I've watched guys put 5 or 6 actuators on their engines,.. ALL swearing they were bad,.. OR flaky,.. or other problems -- all the while IT IS ONLY THE ECM ACTING UP / USUALLY REFUSING TO FIRE THE REAR BANK PROPERLY BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO REFUSED TO LISTEN OR BELIEVE THAT THERE IS WELL KNOWN ISSUES WITH THIS KEPT UNPLUGGING / SCREWING WITH THEM AND GOT THE ECM HUNG UP WITH THESE PROBLEMS AND NO CODES FOR IT FOR HOURS OR EVEN DAYS AT A TIME SOMETIMES!.

Yeah,,. the same things can happen if there is wiring issues with them too.


** IT IS SIMPLY A SOFTWARE ISSUE !

** IT USUALLY EFFECTS THE REAR BANK TIMING OR METERING OR BOTH THE MOST !

** CAN HAPPEN TO THE FRONT BANK BUT NOT NEARLY AS COMMON!

** CAN CAUSE A SEMI-PERMANENT OR EVEN PERMANENT SILENT DERATE WITH NO CODES OR INDICATIONS THAT IT HAS REDUCED THE AMOUNT OF ALLOWED FUELING TO THE INJECTORS SOMETIMES! - This is actually most common when it does not like the coil resistance of the fuel shutoff solenoid, but there is not enough problem for it to throw a code yet.

** ECM DOES NOT THROW ANY CODES FOR THESE PROBLEMS OR HUNG-UP FIRING/DERATE STATES ONCE EVERYTHING IS PLUGGED BACK IN! - ITS A SOFTWARE BUG THAT EFFECTS ALL CM871'S FACTORY PROGRAMMING AND DE-MANDATED ALIKE!

** SOMETIMES THE DERATE OR FIRING PROBLEMS GETS HUNG UP SO BAD THAT IT IS PERMANENT UNTIL THE ECM IS RE-FLASHED WITH A FACTORY CLEAN INCAL / FIRST-BOOT FILE THAT WILL ALSO WIPE THE RAM-MEMORY OUT PROPERLY! - When it gets hung up like this badly enough, it will not have the correct injection timing or fueling for the rear bank UNTIL THE ECM IS RE-FLASHED/WIPED CLEAN ,.. OR.... it will refuse to let the engine have more than roughly about 250mg/stroke no matter how much power/torque is being requested.

[Chamberpains]

Thanks Nostalgic, I'm glad you made this mistake. I thought I read every topic on this forum but i never seen this. Very good info.

[Waterloo]

Same here, never knew this. Good to know for sure. It is like Trump stated the other day when asked about his conversations with Boeing regarding the 737 disaster. Trump told the head of Boeing they are making these planes to damn complicated to fly. He also said something to the effect that only computer engineering graduates of MIT would be able to fly these things. He urged them to go back to simpler less complicated engineering practices.

It is like these trucks, they have one purpose, to deliver a commodity. They are making that simple task darn near impossible with all of the insanity under our hoods. Eight and nine miles per gallon is great, but what good is that when the fuel pump grenades on your low mileage, computer controlled motor and puts you out of business?

[Nostalgic]

(05-27-2019 )Chamberpains Wrote:  Thanks Nostalgic, I'm glad you made this mistake. I thought I read every topic on this forum but i never seen this. Very good info.

Glad to be of service haha.

[Nostalgic]

Ok, now, as I stated, everything was off when I replaced the rear timing actuator and installed the other 3 cleaned and inspected actuators and found the rear bank dead.

It was started twice (so I could get the camera and check my exhaust manifold) before I unplugged/plugged the rear timing actuator to stop the ticking.

Would the resistance of the new actuator cause this issue, or is it in fact bad? In other words, it it worth it to reflash the ECM and try the reman actuator again?


As it sits now-

I put the original timing actuator back on and it starts and idles fine. Since I had a new timing AND metering actuator, I replaced the rear metering actuator, and then used the plunger out of the old one to replace the worn/with a step plunger in the old rear timing actuator.

It still has .005" side play, but no step on the shaft.

[Rawze]

(05-27-2019 )Nostalgic Wrote:  Ok, now, as I stated, everything was off when I replaced the rear timing actuator and installed the other 3 cleaned and inspected actuators and found the rear bank dead.

It was started twice (so I could get the camera and check my exhaust manifold) before I unplugged/plugged the rear timing actuator to stop the ticking.

Would the resistance of the new actuator cause this issue, or is it in fact bad? In other words, it it worth it to reflash the ECM and try the reman actuator again?


As it sits now-

I put the original timing actuator back on and it starts and idles fine. Since I had a new timing AND metering actuator, I replaced the rear metering actuator, and then used the plunger out of the old one to replace the worn/with a step plunger in the old rear timing actuator.

It still has .005" side play, but no step on the shaft.

unless you have been plugging and unplugging them many times., a person can usually just do several cut-out tests with the cylinders. This typically clears it up (and gives an indication if an actuator is actually bad / something is wrong)

Otherwise, how would you know if that sound your hearing is normal for a good actuator or not?

I can say this...

YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE A BAD ACTUATOR ON YOUR HANDS THERE,.. I AM NOT THERE TO KNOW FOR SURE,.. AND YOU ARE NOT ME. -- BUT GENERALLY ...

there's no way in hell I would change out an actuator because of some stupid subtle 'clicking/ticking' sounds, slightly rough idle, or any other minor bullS#it. ... it would have to be pretty significant + stumble a lot and/or have a significant drop in fuel mileage or power, something CLEARLY MEASURABLE AND SIGNIFICANT .. for me to start justifying replacing a $500+ actuator. -- My own engine has 1.4 million and still 100% the original IFSM components/actuators that came from the factory. -- ,.. I STILL GET 9+ MPG!.

The IRONY is that it used to run rough at idle,.. when I REPLACE THE WHOLE HEAD it smoothed out -- way out. - Only thing I can contribute this to is significantly less wear in the cam bearings, as I re-used every bit of what came out/off of the old head including injectors, cams, rockers, etc. -- I later replaced my injectors because I knew they were slightly leaky and very old,.. but it had already been running a whole lot smoother at that point.

Its a big clunky diesel engine .. Do all the proper checks,.. ensure the valves are adjusted properly, do an injector leak down, do cut-out tests, check for excess wear on the shanks of actuators if paranoid about them worn out if you like,...

There ARE ACTUALLY WAYS to see if you have actual idle/fuel supply issues ... use CT to graph the mg/stroke the engine is using at idle,.. see if it is fluctuating up and down in a wavy sine-wavy type pattern by several mg/stroke,. or see if it is fairly steady / random by only a couple few mg/stroke.
--> Mostly steady = not typically actuator problems. -- measurably wavy = something is wrong like air in the fuel, worn out actuator, leaky injector,.. etc.etc.etc.

Also if it is using more fuel than normal, (or significantly less fuel than normal) that is an indication of actuator problems, injection timing issues, or higher than normal exhaust/turbo back-pressure.

I have seen guys who's engines report 0 - 8 mg/stroke on a graph,.. clearly there is a leaky metering or timing actuator. I have seen engines rev up and the mg/stroke go to zero, clearly a bad, hanging actuator getting stuck open. I have seen engines that use 50+ mg/stroke that have bad timing actuators, but I have also seen this when the turbo spooled up too much or something else in the exhaust is is bad/restrictive.

A person can also test the timing actuators (roughly) for correctness by overriding bypassing the start of injection with CT and moving the final timing form 0 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 to 9 BTDC. If the timing actuators are working properly, the sound of valve lash will get significantly louder at about the 7.5 BTDC or so SOI override setting (cm870/871 engines models only). This is also where the fueling at idle will break over and start dropping mg/stroke up to and all the way to about 9.0 BTDC where it reaches the extremes of what the engine can handle safely at idle without excess wear. Jumping back and fourth between 6.0 and 8.0 it should sound significantly different. If there is no sound change, either you need better hearing,.. or you have timing actuator issues that can be measured. there will also be a measurable change in how much fueling it uses (mg/stroke) at idle between these 2 points. All piston driven engines have this 'break-over' point in injection timing settings, where the sound changes significantly . It can be used to see if the engine ECM/computer's injection timing settings match this mechanical point.


Starting to get the picture???

ONLY IF THERE ARE SIGNIFICANTLY MEASURABLE AND ACTUAL SIGNIFICANT PERFORMANCE-CHANGING PROBLEMS would I do something about actuators, not some subtle BS or sounds, or stupid random idle variances that are too close to be measured...

If it passes all those tests / checks ... by-god RUN THE DAMN THING AND MAKE MONEY OTHERWISE instead of chasing ghosts, slightly rough idle, and any sort of stupid subtle BS that has nothing to do with going down the road.

I see a lot of people chasing that ghost of perfect, smooth idle and perfect smooth, rattle-free stuff for it to only drive them mad and waste all sorts of money endlessly eventually only to realize there is nothing actually wrong.

"Does the captain of his ship not know every screw and bolt and weld? -- When he is at sea and in battle long enough,.. he eventually will !" -- Thomas Kennamer

[Nostalgic]

(05-27-2019 )Rawze Wrote:  Starting to get the picture???

Slightly... A large portion of using CT to the extent you are fluent is simply over my head.

I went to the actuators after I lost #6 injector - simply to check/inspect and rule out any issues, and since I found the worn step in the rear timing, figured I'd change it now rather than later. I know the fueling is running "wet" but this thing is a soot monster and I'd like to try to clean up the oil - I was trying to rule out mechanical before going back into programming.

My limited understanding tells me it shouldn't, but oil still seems to be taking a lot of the heat that should be going out the exhaust. I don't think I ever saw over 700 on the pyro mounted to exhaust manifold on even the longest pull. I moved my pyro to inside the downpipe today to run for a week.

On a cold start at idle, exhaust manifold runs 120-140, while the downpipe runs around 180 - not sure if that's even relevant?

If this was a gas engine with catalytic converters, I wouldn't feel quite so lost. This is a huge learning curve for me.