OTHER ENGINES

[axe]

Most on here know of the problems with the ISX, but what about Detroit? Got a buddy who knows a lady whose husband passed away, and has a Freightliner with 15 litre Detroit. What probs do they have? Do the cams and head give problems like Cummins? Do they see major engine wear at 500,000 or so like Cummins? Are DPF DEF systems harder, or easier to service? Can they be mandated with success like ISX? I am on my second Cm871. Like has been said many times on here when buying used truck in 5 to 600,000 mile range it most likely has some major internal problems. My truck now has 700,000 and had the mandate done around 580,000. Cam was showing lots of wear then. Head has not been replaced, so Im in the boat along with a lot of others on here. With a head, cam, and an inframe, looking at a pretty good chunk of change. I have spent a lot f money getting the truck in shape and now I know its sink another 10 to 15 grand in it to get the engine in shape. Man what a difference from the old style trucks. I know that starts a whole new argument there, but Im beginning to wonder if its really worth it. I understand that when the ISX is right they are great motors, but buying a used one and getting it right is a lot of $$$. Had an 02 Volvo with ISX and 1.2 million on it with no major engine repairs. Had 05 International bought brand new and put over 600,000 on it and had no major engine repairs. Have had several 12.7 litre Detroits that had well over 500,000 when we got them and seemed like they would last forever. Last 12.7 I drove avg 6.7 mpg running 65-70 with cruise. Now how much better mileage would it have gotten driving the Rawze style? Guess it just comes down to LUCK when you buy these big company turn ins. A lot of guys enjoy working on there trucks, its there hobby. Its not mine. I drive 3000 plus miles every week and when I get time off I don't want to spend it working on my truck. I do all regular maintenance and I don't care what nobody says there is a ton more regular stuff to be done than I there used to be. Used to be a truck had 500,00 on it you could go to the bank and borrow the money to buy it, go to work and keep it maintained and pay off the truck and still have something, and have enough put back for an in frame, not anymore. My first DPF truck was a 2010 Volvo. Bought used and it had 922,00 on it when I traded it with head or head gasket issues. DPF still intact. Now it damn near broke me keeping the cel off and that's when I found this forum and Rawze. Well I traded it to a 10 Prostar with a lil over around 550,000 and went to South Ga soon after. Truck is paid for, but I done put over $12,000 in it in the last 8 months. All new tires, all new brakes and drums, turbo, all new shocks, new AC compressor on and on. That's just parts, done all the labor myself. Got the truck in decent shape, but wonder everyday, when the heads gonna go. Got a injector leaking. So its a head, cam injector or 2, overhaul kit, or buy this Freightliner with a Detroit and see whats up with the new Detroits. Long story short, I know the problems and ins and outs of Cummins would love to hear the ins and outs of Detroits, and even the new Volvo motors. Got my flame suit on and bullet proof vest so bring it on. Love to hear what you guys think about em. Thanks Rawze and everyone else for all the help.

[Waterloo]

We had some Ryder Freightliner rental day cabs in North Dakota with the 13L Detroits, they all used DEF fluid and the years varied. They too rarely ran, most spent their time broke down in the corner of the lot as no one up there knew how to fix them. From what I recall, they were like the ISX, check engine lights on all the time, the wiring harnesses and sensors were replaced numerous times which temporarily fixed the issues but the troubles soon returned. All of these trucks were in the 200,000 to 400,000 mileage range. They did not like the cold weather, the DEF tended to freeze along with the other issues mentioned above. Moisture in the electrical connections perhaps? I really don't know, when I left I think they had one running out of the five they brought over from Fargo.

Funny too, because I drove an old Freightliner up there, a 1997, Old Fred is what I called her. Series 60 with over 1,000,000 miles... I drove that truck for nearly two years in the oil fields of ND and Montana. I had a pinion shaft seal fail on the rear end and had it fixed the same day, that was it... She started everyday and ran like a swiss watch. She was a mess, but very reliable, never left me stranded like this new stuff... I bought this ProStar to put to work up there doing the same thing I was doing with Old Fred, that truck would not have lasted two hours up there.

I would look for an older clean truck, with a Series 60 or N-14, the guys in my company that run them have little if any issues with these motors, while I am broke down at least once a week with this ISX, and everything is new, other than the brake system and CAC... On my second turbo since the in frame... I am seriously thinking of selling her, and finding an old something, year 2000 or older.

[Brock]

I come from the auto salvage industry. We could tell you everything you needed to know about certain car brands by what age and what reason they were coming into our wrecking yard. ie. chev 2.4L with timing chain broke at 220km, ford 3.0L with blown head gasket at 300km

I use this same approach when buying heavy truck brands. I look at the used trucks. and I look every single day whether I'm buying or not.....

Detroit has more trucks under 500,000km with "New engine" listed in the writeup then any other engine, even cummins. It's a gamble like any other and you'll always hear conflicting stories. I work with 2 guys that both have dd15, ones never had a problem and the others almost bankrupt. Same story as this 871, guys see rawze doing good and assume they will too but the short is, the 871 is junk as well but at least with this engine we have a saving grace to helps us better understand the pile we drive.

Don't let trucker stories pick your truxk. like pulling a maintinamce history before buying at a dealership, look at truck histories in general because when people sell a truck that was rebuilt at 300 miles, I run!

[Waterloo]

It's a pickle for sure... I'm poking around The Truck Paper right now looking at old iron... But what are you getting? I think of everything that could, can and will go wrong... I remember the 80's and 90's... You bought a truck, service it regularly, put air in the tires, check the hubs, hoses, coolant, etc., and you had a million mile virtually trouble free truck. This new stuff, like Rawze has said, 500,000 miles and throw it out, if you can even make it that far!

I'm thinking that in all reality, if you are in the market for a new or newer truck, a glider is probably the only way to go. And yes, fuel mileage can be a bit off compared to the 8 mpg many of us get with these de-mandated ISX motors. But, when you factor in downtime, and repairs, are you really that far ahead of the game? I figure in my three years of ownership of this 2008 ProStar, I have only gotten about two years work out of it and am well over $100,000+++ in the hole with repairs, lost revenue and downtime. That's allot of fuel. I think I am going to start looking at gliders if this truck of mine keeps giving me problems. I went all week with no hiccups, she is running like a swiss watch, just hoping this new Mexican reman turbo holds up, I'm going out there in a few minutes to check on her... I saw a bit of that slobber mist on her boots from the CAC the other day.

To top it off, freight sucks right now, only 7 loads this week, when I normally average 15+. Don't know what to do... Thanks for letting me vent.

[Billdozer2]

(07-31-2016 )axe Wrote:  ... and has a Freightliner with 15 litre Detroit....

I'm going to guess you are talking about a Cascadia. The company I work for has a bunch of these with both the ISX and Detroits under the hood. I'm not trying to flame on anyone on here that owns a Cascadia. This is just my experience with them.

The last good year of the Cascadia was 2012. We had 2011's and 2012's that would run and run. Only issue they normally would have was radiators would fail at 300,000 miles. The 2013's were just a bag of #$@!. Clutches, check engine lights, electrical, check engine lights, engine leaks, check engine lights, windshield leaks, check engine lights. Out of our fleet of 40 or so Cascadias, probably 39 would have check engine lights on. The 2013 and newer trucks seem to be the new early 2000 Volvo's. Electrical problems everywhere. I think a big problem with the Cascadia was that all of the big companies loved them when they first came out. So, the big companies started ordering a crap load. Because of this, the quality of the Cascadia really took a hit.

I know that really isn't what you are looking for because all I really talked about was the truck itself. The company I work for gets rid of trucks every 4 years. So, it's just before the (*&^(@& hits the fan. From what I have heard, the Detroits have the same issues as the ISX as far as soot and emissions go. However, it is easier to replace the camshaft. It comes out the top, not the front like the ISX. I have driven one before. It was a 2015 Cascadia. Engine was smooth and quiet. However, power was weak. It supposedly had the same power rating as my ISX, but it did not feel that way. I've always been told, as far as stock engines go, if you want fuel economy? Get the Detroit. You want power? Get the Cat. You want both? Get the ISX.

[in2trux]

(07-31-2016 )axe Wrote:  Well I traded it to a 10 Prostar with a lil over around 550,000 and went to South Ga soon after. Truck is paid for, but I done put over $12,000 in it in the last 8 months. All new tires, all new brakes and drums, turbo, all new shocks, new AC compressor on and on. That's just parts, done all the labor myself. Got the truck in decent shape, but wonder everyday, when the heads gonna go. Got a injector leaking. So its a head, cam injector or 2, overhaul kit, or buy this Freightliner with a Detroit and see whats up with the new Detroits. Long story short, I know the problems and ins and outs of Cummins would love to hear the ins and outs of Detroits, and even the new Volvo motors. Got my flame suit on and bullet proof vest so bring it on. Love to hear what you guys think about em. Thanks Rawze and everyone else for all the help.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
The bulk the money you've put into your truck from my perspective is necessary to run any truck down the road.
If you cast it aside for another truck you'll just be starting the process all over, because EVERY truck has problems, some more than others but it takes time to find and fix them.

In your favor, THE TRUCK IS PAID FOR! The engine is the heart, without it everything comes to a stop.
If you have a leaking injector you need to get that taken care of PDQ before you burn a hole in a piston.
Replace them all if possible, that way when you replace the head it will be 6 less big parts to buy.

Bottom line is any truck is going to cost you $1000-1500 /month in repairs and maintenance. Our last truck was a 02 Volvo and totaled $46,000 over 4 years.
The biggest expense to over come is an inframe but if done right will out last all the other repairs.
I know I will be buying another clutch, remaning the transmission, replacing a turbo, a radiator, a CAC, etc. etc.

That is the cost of doing business and should be an assumption in your budgeting and P/L profit and loss.
Take a look at it over 4-5 years and average it out against your annual mileage to get a true cost of ownership.

[axe]

I am no stranger tobuying and fixing up trucks. Have done it for a long time. Have owned over 20 in the last 13 years. Would buy an old truck get it in good reliable shape and sell or trade it. I have never spent 1000 to 1500 a month on maintenance and repairs, not until I got my first dpf truck. I was just curious of the ins and outs of the other brands. Habve always had Cummins and Detroits. No Cats, Volvos or anything else. Just not so sure I wanna sink all that cash into a 2010 Prostar is all. The only way I will get it back out of it is to drive it out. I know the new trucks and all the technology has come a long way but just trying to weigh options and get opinions before I spend enough on the engine that I could buy a whole other truck for. Trucks are damn cheap right now. Different strokes for different folks and what works for me might not work for someone else. Thanks for all the input and help.

[Waterloo]

(07-31-2016 )axe Wrote:  I know the new trucks and all the technology has come a long way but just trying to weigh options and get opinions before I spend enough on the engine that I could buy a whole other truck for.

Just a heads up... That latest and greatest technology, is that $1000 to $1500 a month in maintenance that was mentioned above... If you want to gamble, go for it, I would look for some old iron and fix it once and be done with it, or go with a glider with an OEM reman. But that is just me... I could have at the very least two, if not three really nice Petes sitting in my driveway with all of the downtime, repairs and what not on my 2008 ProStar... I was out there today wrenching on it again today cleaning out the oil in the turbo lines... Second turbo since the $40,000 in frame, and I still have slobber and oil in the system... You want to see a mess, look at my tax returns. I would not wish one of these trucks on my worst enemy, or my ex wife, and I don't like her.

Oh, those Petes, they would be paid for, clear titles.

[Texasdude74]

Stories like these is why Cummins was forced to retire the ISX name. It had become a four letter word to owner operators. Most everyone I know, including one 20 year Cummins guy have given up on them and are building cat powered gliders. Yes, the new stuff might save $3-5k per year at the fuel pump but will cost you $50k+ per year between the shop bills and downtime.