Coolant loss

[Waterloo]

(03-20-2021 )03maxpower Wrote:  

(03-20-2021 )tree98 Wrote:  BEFORE YOU PULL THE HEAD!!!!!......drop the pan and pressurize the cooling system to 20 psi, let it sit overnight and then check for coolant running down between a liner and the block. You might have to slowly bar the engine over, look closely it can be easily missed.

I would bet a lot of money you dropped a liner, especially if cummins just worked on it not long ago. You really shouldn't let those guys anywhere near your engine.

I’m a little ignorant to this so I have to ask. How does that happen? Could it have been prevented and how? I know what’s done is done, but if that’s it I don’t want something like that to happen again. Thank you

The liner(s) break loose internally from the ledge they sit upon due to the increase in lateral thrust, which is caused by lugging the motor under loaded conditions. The rod and pistons bust them loose, more like beats them loose. The liners simply drop in from the top of the motor and sit on the slimmest, very narrow ledge, and the weight of the head keep them intact. Hit them with side pressures often enough, that lateral thrust, and they break loose from that ledge and take out the head gasket and eventually the head.

ISX heads and gaskets do not fail on their own, other than through abuse or age. Under normal conditions an ISX head and gasket can go darn near two million miles without issue with proper care.

This pressure test of the cooling system that Tree mentioned is the only sure way to find if a liner has broken loose and has taken out the gasket. And it does not take much, just a few thousandths of an inch will do it.

Pressure up the motor to 20psi via the cooling system, drain the oil and drops the pan. Let sit overnight, if it falls more than a few PSI you have other issues, a loose clamp, etc, so make sure everything is tight before you pressurize. Let sit, in morning you will need to be able to bar over the motor. You will need someone barring the motor and someone under the motor with a good strong flashlight. you will be looking for coolant droplets on the cylinder walls. Normally it is cylinder five or six. Mine was five. Also, make sure you are in a quiet space when barring the motor, as you will hear the leak, a swishing/woosh/gurgle sound as the crankshaft is turned, you will hear it up at the head through the liner opening. Odds are you will hear the gurgle/swoosh sound before you will see the coolant. It sounds like lightly blowing air through a straw into a glass of water.

If a head gasket fails, there is a 99.9999% chance a liner has broken loose and the motor will need to be in framed. And only use a new OEM Cummins head, they are not refurbishable, no matter what Cummins says, one time use and send to the scrap yard.

The fix for your issue is to disassemble the motor, pull the liners and cut the ledge for the liners, then add shims to get the liner height up to .0014 of an inch protrusion. That is your only fix.

The problem is, very few shops ever follow the Cummins manual and machine the block and add the required shims, much less do they even measure liner heights. It is very rare that even a real Cummins shop will follow the manual and do this step. Even some Cummins factory re-manufactured motors have this step skipped, they are junk the day they are installed. They throw the liners in, and slap on the new gasket and head and call it good. The Cummins manual is very clear on the step requiring the block be machined and shimmed to accept the new liners. There is no plan B. The norm is to skip this crucial step, as the tools required to do this are not cheap, and it requires a bit of skill to do this step correctly. Most shops totally ignore this step, even if they tell you they do not. They have no issue lying to you, they got your money, and odds are the liner will hold until after the warranty expires. Then you can go suck an egg.

I was a victim of this myself, cost me $38,000 the first go around. Rawze saved my bacon by inviting me to his house to fix, we in framed the motor in his driveway. That first in frame, it lasted 70,000 miles, as that is about the time my head gasket failed, and it destroyed my new head.

Two in frames in two years, do not be that guy. Unless you have deep pockets and or a masochistic streak in you.

[03maxpower]

I’ll do this test Monday and go from there. Thanks for your help.

[Rawze]

(03-20-2021 )03maxpower Wrote:  I’ll do this test Monday and go from there. Thanks for your help.

Keep taking it to the OEM network of complete morons and you will have nothing but continued grief.

here is the road your on...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...5#pid41315

[Rawze]

(03-20-2021 )03maxpower Wrote:  Little update: coolant in the oil after another oil sample. Will be pulling the head to see what the issue really is. I still believe it’s just the gasket seeing how Cummins just replaced the head in December. More updates still to come.

you don't "pull the head" to see what it is .. that is what some complete f$king under-trained idiot would do!. /... YOU DO THE PROPER TESTS FIRST TO DETERMINE WHAT THE ISSUE IS!!!!... BEFORE PULLING THE HEAD OFF IT AND WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME AND MONEY!

NEXT: - If it turns out to be the head gasket.... HEAD GASKETS ON ISX ENIGNE DO NOT FAIL WITHOUT THERE BEING A LINER ISSUE!!! -- PERIOD!!!-- I JUST WILL NOT HAPPEN!. HEAD GASKET WILL ONLY EVER FAIL WHEN THERE IS A DROPPED LINER!... EVER! ... UNLESS SOMEONE UNDER-TORQUED THE HEAD WHEN THEY BUILT THE MOTOR... AND EVEN IN THAT CASE, IT CAUSES A LINER TO DANCE THAT BLOWS THE GASKET!!!./.. AND THAT HEAD IS RUINED.. AND THE BLOCK NEEDS COUNTER-BORING TO FIX IT AGAIN!

THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS... THERE ARE NO PROPERLY TRAINED PEOPLE ON THESE ENGINES ANY MORE WORKING FOR THE OEM NETWORK OF MORONS OUT THERE... THEY ARE MOSTLY COMPLETE DUMB-ARSSES AND THAT IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU GO TO THOSE "CERTIFIED" SHOPS!!!!


AND IF THAT IS INDEED YOUR ISSUE.... A HEAD GASKET FAILURE... THEN YOU CAN BLAME IT SQUARELY ON THE DIP$SHITS WHO TOOK IT APART THE LAST TIME, DID A HALF-ARSED REPAIR, AND DID A S$IT JOB!... WASTED EVERYONE'S TIME AND MONEY ... SIMPLE AS THAT!


If the head gasket is gonzo... it will need counter-boring ... IT WILL NEED NEW LINERS (likely an overhaul kit), it will need the liners raised to 0.014" this time. IT WILL ALSO NEED A NEW HEAD!!!... because those liners eat into the bottom of the head just the same as they eat into the engine block when they dance around ... there is no shortcuts ... SOMEONE COMPLETELY WASTED YOUR MONEY AND TIME THE FIRST TIME THEY HAD IT APART, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

I SEE OR HEAR ABOUT THIS 20 OR 30 TIMES A YEAR AT LEAST BY THESE COLLECTION OF CERTIFIED SHOPS OUT HERE ANY MORE AND IT IS SICKENING!

Bobtail that thing to Mr. Hags and let it get built the right way so that you don't keep repeating history on it. That or build it yourself so you know it was done right.

-- AND ALWAYS SAY NO TO ANY AFTER-MARKET COMPONENTS INSIDE THAT ENGINE... ONLY USE CERTIFIED OEM PARTS... OEM BRAND NEW HEAD (OR A CERTIFIED REMAN IF YOU HAVE TO) OR YOU WILL BE DOING IT ALL OVER AGAIN IN ABOUT 3 YEARS OR SO YET AGAIN!

[03maxpower]

It was taken there solely cause of a casting defect in the head. We will be checking for the root cause as stated earlier by doing the recommended tests and will update. Thanks again for the information.

[Chamberpains]

I've been meaning to post this for few weeks and this is the 1st story I've ran in to since that it applies.

Here in Central PA we actually have a journeyman machine shop that for a couple hundred bucks, will come to your chosen place and machine the counter bores to .014 They'll set the shims and liners to verify. I was told this is the only measurement they'll cut counter bores in an ISX. It seems the word is getting out that ISX's need to be set to this standard height.

A friend of mine told me that they do all the local dealerships and shops in the area when called. I was a bit surprised to hear this. It's good to know that there is a competent place doing this kind of work for guys. Maybe if this story goes south on an overhaul you can check your local area to see if there is a similar type of deal around. This will guarantee you get those counterbores done and done right.

[tree98]

Could we get a phone number? On second thought Rawze probably won't want it on here. I'll PM you for it.

[Paulywantsacracker]

(03-08-2021 )Waterloo Wrote:  That old mechanic called it, what did I have to lose, a $10 clamp after spending $2500? It worked...

Are you talking about the 2 hoses going into the tranny on the bottom passenger side ?

[Paulywantsacracker]

I get which hose you mean , but now just wondering if i can find a leak in the head gasket , liner , or any where internally and overhead by removing oil pan and pressurizing the system and so if any of the above fail it should show up underneath? Is that correct ? Thanks in advance