Block cutting, specific to ISX/X

[dericson]

What’s happening folks.

Have an odd question that I think I’m overthinking. Typically cut counterbores on midrange blocks. Have a buddy looking to cut his x15 block. I’m not looking on advice on the hot topic about brass vs ss shims. But I was recently talking to a guy and he said he adds a ss shim to the bottom of a captive shim factory installed on the liner (the one with the tangs that point downwards. Book says factory installed captive shims and a service shim can’t be used together I thought. He brainf*cked me on that one. I’ve heard of stacking service shims but never captive/brass or ss shims together. I know big bore and small bore liners either have a factory captive shim or do not. Thoughts?

[Signature620]

You don't have a choice once the block is cut, you have to use 2 service shims or use 1 service shim and 1 captive shim.

152mm liners don't use captive shims but come with a loose 0.032" shim in the box.

There's nothing else to it.

[Rawze]

(09-28-2022 )dericson Wrote:  What’s happening folks.

Have an odd question that I think I’m overthinking. Typically cut counterbores on midrange blocks. Have a buddy looking to cut his x15 block. I’m not looking on advice on the hot topic about brass vs ss shims. But I was recently talking to a guy and he said he adds a ss shim to the bottom of a captive shim factory installed on the liner (the one with the tangs that point downwards. Book says factory installed captive shims and a service shim can’t be used together I thought. He brainf*cked me on that one. I’ve heard of stacking service shims but never captive/brass or ss shims together. I know big bore and small bore liners either have a factory captive shim or do not. Thoughts?

Also, if you do not raise the liner height above factory, you are not going to extend the engines life by very much any ways.

There is a lot to be done that is "not in the book" of you want a quality build for all the moneys spent. You want a proper million mile build.. then you have to do all this stuffs...

ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid70606

I have never had an issue with using more than one shim (the one that comes on the new liner + a cummins hardened brass shim (or ss shims as second choice) to raise the liner height with.

Also, bad delete programming (and/or lugging the engine to death below 1500rpm its whole life) is the #1,#2 reason they dance in the block to begin with. If that thing has a delete programming it then it needs to be copied out of the ecm and e-mailed to me for a proper review to ensure it is not going to shorten the engine life or contribute towards another failure.

[dericson]

(09-28-2022 )Signature620 Wrote:  You don't have a choice once the block is cut, you have to use 2 service shims or use 1 service shim and 1 captive shim.

152mm liners don't use captive shims but come with a loose 0.032" shim in the box.

There's nothing else to it.

I get what you’re saying. As far as my understanding all new liners come with a captive shim now. Or maybe still a loose shim in the box for 152. Regardless, you’re saying whether it be a 150 with captive shim or 152 (using loose .032 shim) if I cut the block for a .020 brass shim or whatever the math to get .0015 protrusion, I will a) stack a .020 shim with a captive shim, or b) stack a 152 loose shim with said .020 service shim?

The post wasn’t mainly for “in the book” specific guidelines, I was just trying to get the facts ironed out, whether it be book specs or real world specs. Of course the theory of block cutting is taught a certain way, but actually doing the job is typically different. I’m used to cutting mid range so it’s a step up for me on an X.

[dericson]

(09-28-2022 )Rawze Wrote:  

(09-28-2022 )dericson Wrote:  What’s happening folks.

Have an odd question that I think I’m overthinking. Typically cut counterbores on midrange blocks. Have a buddy looking to cut his x15 block. I’m not looking on advice on the hot topic about brass vs ss shims. But I was recently talking to a guy and he said he adds a ss shim to the bottom of a captive shim factory installed on the liner (the one with the tangs that point downwards. Book says factory installed captive shims and a service shim can’t be used together I thought. He brainf*cked me on that one. I’ve heard of stacking service shims but never captive/brass or ss shims together. I know big bore and small bore liners either have a factory captive shim or do not. Thoughts?

Also, if you do not raise the liner height above factory, you are not going to extend the engines life by very much any ways.

There is a lot to be done that is "not in the book" of you want a quality build for all the moneys spent. You want a proper million mile build.. then you have to do all this stuffs...

ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid70606

I have never had an issue with using more than one shim (the one that comes on the new liner + a cummins hardened brass shim (or ss shims as second choice) to raise the liner height with.

Also, bad delete programming (and/or lugging the engine to death below 1500rpm its whole life) is the #1,#2 reason they dance in the block to begin with. If that thing has a delete programming it then it needs to be copied out of the ecm and e-mailed to me for a proper review to ensure it is not going to shorten the engine life or contribute towards another failure.

What are your thoughts behind the captive shim introduction in the first place? I’ve figured and heard it because they would rather have the captive shim wear or service shim wear into each other rather than trash a counterbore ledge like they have in the past.

One question I do have is, when using a liner with a captive shim and you install a service shim, is the liner machined a bit to take up the tolerance that the captive shim introduced, or do you have to factor that into your cut depth? I.e take out an extra .001 because the captive shim may be .001? Same question posed for the 152 liner if it comes with the loose shim, is the liner machined down some on mid stop to compensate for the use of the loose shim (does it measure .032?)?

[Rawze]

(09-29-2022 )dericson Wrote:  ...
What are your thoughts behind the captive shim introduction in the first place? I’ve figured and heard it because they would rather have the captive shim wear or service shim wear into each other rather than trash a counterbore ledge like they have in the past.

One question I do have is, when using a liner with a captive shim and you install a service shim, is the liner machined a bit to take up the tolerance that the captive shim introduced, or do you have to factor that into your cut depth? I.e take out an extra .001 because the captive shim may be .001? Same question posed for the 152 liner if it comes with the loose shim, is the liner machined down some on mid stop to compensate for the use of the loose shim (does it measure .032?)?

you can speculate all you want to, but it is as simple as achieving the right height and moving on.

[dericson]

(09-29-2022 )Rawze Wrote:  

(09-29-2022 )dericson Wrote:  ...
What are your thoughts behind the captive shim introduction in the first place? I’ve figured and heard it because they would rather have the captive shim wear or service shim wear into each other rather than trash a counterbore ledge like they have in the past.

One question I do have is, when using a liner with a captive shim and you install a service shim, is the liner machined a bit to take up the tolerance that the captive shim introduced, or do you have to factor that into your cut depth? I.e take out an extra .001 because the captive shim may be .001? Same question posed for the 152 liner if it comes with the loose shim, is the liner machined down some on mid stop to compensate for the use of the loose shim (does it measure .032?)?

you can speculate all you want to, but it is as simple as achieving the right height and moving on.

Do you happen to have a reference chart for cut specs and shims handy? I found something floating around and wanted to check the validity of it. I can’t remember exactly where it was from. I added it as a file

ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...9#pid28349

[Rawze]

(09-29-2022 )dericson Wrote:  ...
Do you happen to have a reference chart for cut specs and shims handy? I found something floating around and wanted to check the validity of it. I can’t remember exactly where it was from. I added it as a file

ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...9#pid28349

I corrected your post... and yes, those are the numbers that I typically go by when doing one.

[dericson]

(09-29-2022 )Rawze Wrote:  

(09-29-2022 )dericson Wrote:  ...
Do you happen to have a reference chart for cut specs and shims handy? I found something floating around and wanted to check the validity of it. I can’t remember exactly where it was from. I added it as a file

ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...9#pid28349

I corrected your post... and yes, those are the numbers that I typically go by when doing one.

We’ll look at that. You strike again. Must have been copy and pasted elsewhere. I was going to say that maybe I got it off this forum but then the webpage background looked different. Oh well. Anywho. Thanks buddy!