Cylinder Head
02-06-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #1
Cylinder Head
Having some issues with my ISX burning coolant. EGR cooler and valve have been replaced along with pressure testing the entire cooling system at this point. Truck has white smoke out of the exhaust, and smells sweet. No performance issues or anything of significance other than that. Going through a gallon of coolant every 600-700 miles or so at this point. Thinking we are looking at the head. Planning on taking the exhaust manifold off to see if it is wet/signs of coolant. Is there anyway to determine if coming from head/block? Called the dealer (KW) and they provided cylinder head part # 5708760RXCUM with a price of ~$7,800 + tax. Other ISX heads (different part #) look to be significantly cheaper when searching online. What would cause this difference in price? This is a 400ST engine CPL 8520 per engine tag. I found a listing on ebay for a whole engine for $27,000 obo which doesn't seem all that bad considering. ECM is showing 910,000 on the clock, I believe this is the original ECM. Any suggestions on how to proceed? Is there a better CPL to look into getting, and is it compatible with existing harnesses we would already have? This is my only ISX in the fleet, so still trying to learn the in's and outs. Seems like cylinder heads are common on these things though. Appreciate the advice in advance.
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02-06-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #2
RE: Cylinder Head
(02-06-2024 )zmster2033 Wrote:  Having some issues with my ISX burning coolant. EGR cooler and valve have been replaced along with pressure testing the entire cooling system at this point. Truck has white smoke out of the exhaust, and smells sweet. No performance issues or anything of significance other than that. Going through a gallon of coolant every 600-700 miles or so at this point. Thinking we are looking at the head. Planning on taking the exhaust manifold off to see if it is wet/signs of coolant. Is there anyway to determine if coming from head/block? Called the dealer (KW) and they provided cylinder head part # 5708760RXCUM with a price of ~$7,800 + tax. Other ISX heads (different part #) look to be significantly cheaper when searching online. What would cause this difference in price? This is a 400ST engine CPL 8520 per engine tag. I found a listing on ebay for a whole engine for $27,000 obo which doesn't seem all that bad considering. ECM is showing 910,000 on the clock, I believe this is the original ECM. Any suggestions on how to proceed? Is there a better CPL to look into getting, and is it compatible with existing harnesses we would already have? This is my only ISX in the fleet, so still trying to learn the in's and outs. Seems like cylinder heads are common on these things though. Appreciate the advice in advance.

Your journey of learning what to do to make the right decisions has just begun.


First of all.. stop looking online for garbage heads that are "too good to be true"... they are exactly that. You will be pulling that head off it again in about 2-4 years if you cheap out on it at all... and that is a very bad investment.

NEXT: Never guess at things with g=regards to pulling the head off it. Always know EXACTLY what the issue is before taking the engine apart that far.

Not sure how you determined that the egr cooler was not leaking, but how it should be done is by again... pressurizing the coolant system to 20-psi after the engine is cold .. with the egr pipe coming off the back side of the egr cooler removed. Put a catch pan under the open end of the cooler and let it sit all night with it like that and 20-psi on the coolant system. - see if there is coolant buildup in the pan or in the back side of the cooler. - I have an old video of me doing this with someone...
ref: https://youtu.be/tNmQnAJzmVo?si=-N8drCEAZkQ4vs7K

Also, how you check for head gasket failure is that you pull the oil pan off it and let the engine sit over night with 20-psi pressure on the coolant system using a pressure test kit. - The next day, look for signs of coolant seeping out around the piston rings and/or gurgling sounds (and a drop of coolant or so) on a compression stroke while someone turns the engine slowly with a wrench.

====
- You mentioned used or rebuilt long-blocks. - This is NOT the way to go with it. Its a crap shoot and a lot of moneys on a gamble. That is not how you make wise business decisions.

You need to look at such a large expense an an investment into your business and not so much as an expense. One that will make you more moneys back, than you put into it.

I.E.> you invest too little into it or invest it incorrectly, and you will loose moneys and it will only be an expense in the end. That is not place to be and I se it waay to often on here as a mistake that truck owners make, and it leading to nothing but headaches and grief.

You want to invest your moneys in a way that guarantees you the highest return on whatever moneys is actually spent. That return should be the goal of an engine that lasts a million+ miles instead of simply rebuilding it and hoping for the best.. and ending up a few years from now facing another rebuild again because a shortcut was made, or extra steps were not taken to absolutely ensure this, or someone put non-eom parts in it to save a few $$.

I am not talking about every screw and bolt and external part. I am referring mostly to the stuffs and extra procedures (that most shops do not do these days) necessary to ensure that the cylinder head does not have to come off it in it for that next million miles only. The less important externals can be replaced as necessary ... but the quality ans care of those internals and lubricated parts are the key to it all.

Anything less that going full out and doing the job 110% right + doing everything possible to ensure you build it for a full million miles again is just lost moneys in the end. It will get you nowhere in a hurry and broke to boot. =- SO... you go all in .. even if you have to beg, borrow, steal.. whatever it takes.. but YOU DO THE JOB 110% CORRECTLY WITH ABSOLUTELY NO SHORTCUTS OR EXCUSES FOR IT TO NOT GIVE YOU THAT MILLION MILE RETURN ON THAT $$$ INVESTMENT INTO IT!!!.

ALSO: The next problem is that you will be very hard pressed to find anyone that can rebuild it for another million miles. - there are repair shops and garbage can stealers%its more than willing to hack-job an inframe kit on it and new head, etc.. but parts alone will not extend the engine life by more than a couple years.. and another failure in its future if a lot of extra steps are not taken to ensure a million mile build. - Most shops are completely incompetent (and often over-priced) with regards to this. One example of this is that after 900k+ of stress and heat cycling on that engine block, those liners need to be raised to about 0.015" instead of the factory spec, and most shops will not bother will refuse to do this properly any more out of sheer ignr=orance and lack of extended training.

Here is a mighty fine example of what you get when you drop $40,000+ on an inframe and go all out, using a stealers%it that was supposed to be trusted ...
ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid25356

Here is what needs to happen.. nothing less will do whatsoever if you want to get the most return and best investment per dollar on all that moneys spent ...
ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid70606

Start reading and reading on this forum and learning what to do and what to stay away from. If you don't you will regret it art some point when your back on here complaining that the engine failed yet again.

and.. if that thing is deleted.. you need to copy the program out of that ecm, e-mail it to me, and have it reviewed to ensure that (A)... the programming did not contribute towards its demise ... and (B).. that it will be safe for the inframe and the engine over the next million miles. More than 90% of all programming that I review is absolutely horrible and shortens engine life.. this all before even anyone adds any power to it.


User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!.
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 Thanks given by: amermextrucker
02-06-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #3
RE: Cylinder Head
regarding the price around 8k is brand new OEM and around 4k is OEM reman from cummins, thats what i have from part department at last purchase for ISX 15
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02-07-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #4
RE: Cylinder Head
(02-06-2024 )ktblogistics Wrote:  regarding the price around 8k is brand new OEM and around 4k is OEM reman from cummins, thats what i have from part department at last purchase for ISX 15

Didn't use to be so much of a difference between new and reman. New is the right choice without question though.
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02-07-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #5
RE: Cylinder Head
Head prices keep on climbing. Part 5708760RX is a reman head. 5658294 is the part number for a new head. Looking at my cost it seems the new head is about 1600ish bucks more than the reman.

It does seem that the part number you were given is the most expensive CM870 cylinder head. I have a truck here CPL 8518 and the head new (5658283CUM) is cheaper than the reman one your were quoted. When I do a CPL compare between 8520 and 8518 they show the same cylinder head, camshafts, pistons, turbo, etc so I'm not sure what the difference between the two would be. So there certainly could be a cheaper OEM head that could be used on it if it ends up needing it after you follow Rawze's good advice on pressurizing the cooling system.

We haven't had the greatest run with reman heads whether OEM reman or a good machine shop reman. They seem to last about half what a new head seems to last.
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02-07-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #6
RE: Cylinder Head
as far as i remember there is no much price difference on reman or new on cm870 or cm871 but on x15 it almost double , might be wrong but that quote is not more than a mont ago and new x15 head is almost unavailable
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02-08-2024, (Subject: Cylinder Head ) 
Post: #7
RE: Cylinder Head
(02-07-2024 )ktblogistics Wrote:  and new x15 head is almost unavailable

How the hell could that be?? You can buy 870 heads(20 year old engine) but you can't get heads for the new engines?? A bit of a head scratcher there lol. No pun intended.
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