ISX "whistling" and shut down

[CoroView Shop]

Good morning,
We have an ISX with issues. It started with the truck being driven into the ditch (yes, on purpose), with low fuel. What wasn't known at the time is that the fuel tanks were full of sediment. Driving it into the ditch allowed the pick up to pull sediment through the fuel lines, where a large portion of it was stuck in the first fuel filter. This resulted in the engine running okay, but will start making a whistling noise in the engine, then quit. Opening the drain on the first filter actually seems to draw in air. Cycling the key a few times to refill the system, and good to go for a few more minutes. What we've done so far:
-- Completely drained both tanks (got about a 1/2 gallon pail of sediment out of tanks)
-- Replaced all fuel lines up to the first filter, including T's
-- Issue was still present, replaced common rail high side relief valve (still had the original), which seemed to "cure" it for about 3 days, then back to the same
The low side pump has good pressure (120psi), but have not confirmed flow (if anyone has that spec, thank you)
The high pressure pump is the 3 cylinder type, and calling the dealer they say that there is an updated 2 cylinder pump that was issued due to the 3 cylinder pump causing engine failures?
Currently, the truck will run fine unloaded. I can drive it hard and no issues. However, when pulling a trailer (other than the 3 day reprieve after pressure relief replacement), it will pull for about 10-15minutes, then the "whistling" noise, and shut down. Refilling the fuel system (key cycles), and it will repeat the process.
Anyone with additional insight would be greatly appreciated, before I go ahead and replace low and high side pumps, which in Canada are ridiculously priced ($2500 for low side, and about 10k for the high side)
Thank you!

[JimT]

First thing to address is that fuel pump. Good condition or bad, it's a ticking time bomb that usually fails at some point after 400,000 miles. Even the newer, updated versions are subject to failure. The problem lies in the pump head, so it's typically recommended to replace the internals of the pump head every 400,000 miles or so to prevent failure (which often leads to metal debris being sent through the engine). It's been a while since I read up on this, but I think there was a procedure to turn a 3 cylinder pump into a 2 cylinder without replacing the entire pump... but I could be wrong. All the info for that should be available on Quickserve in a TSB.

Diagnostics for the entire fuel system can be found on quickserve as well, including step by step instructions.

There's also return fuel lines from the common rail and injectors to the low pressure / filter housing and, if I remember correctly, there's a return line going to the tank(s) from there as well. I would check all those lines along with all the connection to and from the common rail.

Do you have Insite? are you able to monitor fuel pressure commanded actual? Run a fuel pressure leak down test?

Logically the low pressure side is where you'd think to look given the sediment, but it's possible the trip into the ditch resulted in damage elsewhere that you weren't aware of.

[Rawze]

ISX engines...

If that thing still has the old style 3-cylinder fuel pump.. it has to go ... NOW!... it should have been upgraded years ago!. .. and yes, it is a ticking time bomb ready to take out the entire engine when it fails!.

It is nothing at all to play with, or take for granted if it is still operating.

It is quite expensive (several thousand doll$$ars) to replace and upgrade too. The ehole pump needs replacing, several new fuel lines, and other components too.

Mr. Hag's shop (haggai automotive in griffin, GA) has done many of them in the past.. maybe ask him about what to do to get it done the right way.

You can thank bosch and cummins for that failed experiment of a pump for that and how expensive it is to upgrade it.

HOWEVER... It is also the truck owners fault for not upgrading it for free back when there was a proper recall campaign out on them. Cummins used to replace and upgrade them on a campaign but that has long since past,.. and now you have to buy everything.

That pump LITERALLY DESTROYS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WITH ZERO WARNING when it fails, and nothing whatsoever in that engine can be saved when it happens. The entire engine and all its lubricated components becomes a boat anchor and has to go to a scrap yard.

[CoroView Shop]

Alright, thanks guys. I was kinda leaning that way as to replacing the 3 cylinder pump, but needed a little extra to convince the boss it was a good idea. I'll let you know what happens!

[JimT]

not sure what the US - Canadian currency conversion is currently, but back in 2020 I paid about $4,000 USD for a new fuel pump.

Also, Rawze didn't mention, but you also need a new bracket to support the 2 piston pump.

On Quickserve you should be able to pull up:

Installation Instruction Number: 4907962 Released Date: 19-jan-2011
Two-Cylinder High-Pressure Fuel Pump Assembly

which includes a list of the needed parts. If you don't have an account it's free to sign up with a single ESN

[CoroView Shop]

(04-24-2024 )JimT Wrote:  not sure what the US - Canadian currency conversion is currently, but back in 2020 I paid about $4,000 USD for a new fuel pump.

Also, Rawze didn't mention, but you also need a new bracket to support the 2 piston pump.

On Quickserve you should be able to pull up:

Installation Instruction Number: 4907962 Released Date: 19-jan-2011
Two-Cylinder High-Pressure Fuel Pump Assembly

which includes a list of the needed parts. If you don't have an account it's free to sign up with a single ESN

Awesome, thanks for the info! Very glad I found this site!

[CoroView Shop]

Update:
We have now replaced the low side and high side pump (at the same time after discussing it with my employer), and the situation now is that it ran fine leaving the shop (unloaded), I took it for a test drive and after about 5-10 minutes of driving, we're back to the whistling noise and stall. Cycle the key a few times to fill the fuel system and there's about a 2-3 minute run time. I did notice that there are lines running into and out of the ECM cooler. Is there possibly a check valve in there that may be stuck open and causing an excess fuel return situation, or has anyone run into a bad/prematurely failing high side rail relief valve? Seems odd that it ran fine for a few days after changing the relief valve and now back to this situation. Is there also the possibility that this could be an ECM issue not commanding enough fuel (maybe a reach, I know, but trying to consider all possibilities at this point)
Thank you!

[JimT]

Ok, first off that 3-cylinder pump was an engine failure waiting to happen with only a low chance of being the source of your issue. Good that it's replaced, but also not surprising that the issue remains.

I'm going to do some guessing here based on what you wrote across multiple posts. Hopefully something I ramble off will help :)

First off, to reword your description: Truck starts and runs fine at idle. Once under a load and a higher rate of fuel supply is needed a whistling sound appears followed by the secondary fuel filter running dry, or at least dry enough to interrupt the supply of fuel to the gear pump. I'm making the assumption that the fuel filter is running dry because you stated that cycling the key a few times will reprime the system and the process repeats. Other then the anomaly immediately following replacement of the pressure relief valve, it sounds like you have some kind of leak, probably between the Davco (or whatever water separator you have) and leading into the high pressure pump.

Do you have a Davco unit or some other water separator that you can visually see the fuel level and if there's any air bubbles? When the engine shuts down can you verify that there's enough fuel flowing from the water separator to the secondary filter?

My thoughts: either your sucking air in prior to, or at, the water separator OR you're sucking air in at or around the secondary filter. Possibly from the filter housing itself. You said the truck went into a ditch, the force could have damaged the filter housing where the filter spins on? Maybe a very small crack? Dunno, just speculating.

There's tons of diagnostic and troubleshooting info available on cummins quickserve, including detailed diagnostics for the fuel system.

You never gave any details about the truck make, model, year or the actual engine. I'm assuming from the existence of a 3-cylinder pump that this is an early cm2250, possibly 2010 or 2011? If so then the following link to cummins quickserve should apply:

ISX cm2250 service manual 40222250 - section 005-236 fuel system diagnostics

Also, it should go without saying, but you probably want to go back and double triple check all those new hoses and connections from the tanks all the way to the filters. You have a small leak, somewhere. Maybe disconnect the fuel supply hose from the tank and the water separator and pressure test the hoses?

Given the association of a whistling sound and the subsequent engine shutdown I wouldn't think the ECM should be considered at this point.

[CoroView Shop]

(05-08-2024 )JimT Wrote:  Ok, first off that 3-cylinder pump was an engine failure waiting to happen with only a low chance of being the source of your issue. Good that it's replaced, but also not surprising that the issue remains.

I'm going to do some guessing here based on what you wrote across multiple posts. Hopefully something I ramble off will help :)

First off, to reword your description: Truck starts and runs fine at idle. Once under a load and a higher rate of fuel supply is needed a whistling sound appears followed by the secondary fuel filter running dry, or at least dry enough to interrupt the supply of fuel to the gear pump. I'm making the assumption that the fuel filter is running dry because you stated that cycling the key a few times will reprime the system and the process repeats. Other then the anomaly immediately following replacement of the pressure relief valve, it sounds like you have some kind of leak, probably between the Davco (or whatever water separator you have) and leading into the high pressure pump.

Do you have a Davco unit or some other water separator that you can visually see the fuel level and if there's any air bubbles? When the engine shuts down can you verify that there's enough fuel flowing from the water separator to the secondary filter?

My thoughts: either your sucking air in prior to, or at, the water separator OR you're sucking air in at or around the secondary filter. Possibly from the filter housing itself. You said the truck went into a ditch, the force could have damaged the filter housing where the filter spins on? Maybe a very small crack? Dunno, just speculating.

There's tons of diagnostic and troubleshooting info available on cummins quickserve, including detailed diagnostics for the fuel system.

You never gave any details about the truck make, model, year or the actual engine. I'm assuming from the existence of a 3-cylinder pump that this is an early cm2250, possibly 2010 or 2011? If so then the following link to cummins quickserve should apply:

ISX cm2250 service manual 40222250 - section 005-236 fuel system diagnostics

Also, it should go without saying, but you probably want to go back and double triple check all those new hoses and connections from the tanks all the way to the filters. You have a small leak, somewhere. Maybe disconnect the fuel supply hose from the tank and the water separator and pressure test the hoses?

Given the association of a whistling sound and the subsequent engine shutdown I wouldn't think the ECM should be considered at this point.

Hi there,
Just an update as to what we're finding so far. The primary filter never runs dry, and we did suspect the secondary might be getting sucked dry, however finding that isn't the case. (After it stalls, we shut off the key immediately and removed the filter.)
I've monitored live data and found that it leaks down to almost 0 psi in about 10-12 seconds, which I believe is excessive according to Quickserve. At idle, commanded pressure is 8700 psi, and I can watch actual pressure drop off quickly after about a minute of run time. I initially thought that it was sucking the secondary filter dry, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Why, then, would it drop high side pressure and quit after about a minute or so? I'm back to thinking that perhaps the 3 cylinder pump was still pushing some dirt around and caused the relief valve to fail, but don't have the test equipment to verify. According to Quickserve, 10 drops over 60 seconds is a fail. The other possibility is a failed injector, but wouldn't that cause a hard start/black smoke condition?
I am far more familiar with the DD platforms, so any help is very much appreciated!
T