Waterless Coolant systems...Good or Bad?

[Rawze]

Waterless Coolant systems...Good or Bad?

CONCLUSION: I WILL NEVER USE WATERLESS COOLANT!!!! --- IT WAS A NIGHT-MERE IN THE END!


When it comes to all things 'Radiator', I get a lot of questions about the waterless, pressure-less coolant system I used to run on my truck. To some people, it must sound kind of far fetched to run a class-8 truck with zero pressure in the radiator, allowing it to just free-flow, but I can assure you that it does work, and works well, but I would no longer recommend doing do by using waterless coolant. How I ended up running waterless coolant and a zero pressure system is a story in the making that has come full circle, so I thought I would share it with everyone...


Traveling east on I-94 in Montana, My wife pulled over to switch drivers with me. We had just climbed Magic Mountain, heading east, and were at a fairly high altitude. She went inside, and I crawled out of the sleeper and stepped outside to do my pre-trip inspection to change drivers. I opened the hood and checked the oil, etc. and right away, I noticed the coolant level was very low. My first thoughts were that I might have a radiator leak, so I started crawling around the truck. Finding NO leaks whatsoever, I then thought to myself that maybe it was my EGR cooler. Blasted things are notorious for leaking,... Grrrr...

I went inside the truck C-store where we had stopped, and got a gallon of red coolant, and proceeded out to the truck. When I cracked open the cap to put some coolant in, there was a tremendous pressure trying to escape. It was clear that there was waaaay more than 15-20 PSI of pressure in the tank. If I had to guess it, I would guess 40+ PSI. My coolant level came right back to normal level when the pressure was relieved, but I knew this was NOT a good sign. It was obvious that my radiator cap was bad, and it being a Saturday night, we were no where near any place to get a new one. All I could think of was what was going to happen to my EGR cooler, or hoses, head gasket, etc. if we kept driving. There were several high elevation places we still needed to go over, and I got worried. I didn't want to run the truck with no cap on the tank at all, so I thought maybe I should punch a hole in the radiator cap, so that I could continue my journey, getting a new cap next chance I got.

Starring at this cap, I realized I had no way of drilling a hole in it, so I took a jewelers screwdriver (a very tiny screwdriver for repairing eye-glasses), and hammered it into the top of the much softer plastic tank instead. I figured I would just replace the plastic tank or weld it back closed later on instead. I can weld Polypropylene easily enough, and figured it would be an easy fix when I got home the next week. With such a tiny hole, I guessed that it would at least have some pressure in the system, but that climbing the mountains would not be as bad on the system. Well, looking back, I can chalk that one up as likely a stupid thing to do, but the deed was done. I went down the road, loosing about 1 gallon of coolant every 6 - 12 hours, due to steam, but it wasn't something I couldn't manage until I got home. After a couple days of heading east, I noticed that on flat ground, there was no pressure in the system most of the time. My truck was not overheating, nor running hot, and in fact, it was running quite well with no pressure. I thought to myself,...Hmmm,... Why do I need pressure in the radiator at all?,... Wouldn't zero pressure be good for the EGR cooler?,... hoses,... Water pump?,... So I started researching why Radiators need pressure. Well, I found out that the primary reason, when referring to my truck, was so the coolant wouldn't boil over at 225 degrees, but instead at 240 degrees. I found out, in the end, that the main reason for the pressure, is so the coolant wouldn't boil over at too low a temperature. I also found out through several racing car forums, that zero pressure is required on some race tracks to reduce coolant from an overheating car getting onto the track.

When I got home, instead of repairing the tank, I decided to figure out how to keep from loosing coolant with zero pressure. What I needed, was a way to cool the steam coming out of the hole, back to a liquid, so that it could be collected and put back in. What I did, was put a fitting, and a shut-off valve where I had drilled the tiny hole, then attached about 10 feet of tiny copper tubing from home depot. I thought surely, that steam traveling through 10 feet of pipe would cool off enough to turn back to liquid, and I was right. I wrapped the 10 feet of copper tubing around my intake pipe to the turbo, where I knew it was drawing in cool air, then crimped the end shut about 50% to slow down the flow a bit. The crimped end of the tubing, I put into a small vented cup-sized 'Catch Tank' I got at summit racing, and put the tube all the way to the bottom. VIOLA!,... no more coolant loss, and in fact, As the engine heated up and cooled, it automatically sucked the excess coolant back into the system, because as the coolant cools off, it drops in level, creating a slight suction on the system.

It worked perfectly, and I drove the truck about 8 months like that through mountains, blistering hot deserts, snow and icy zones, etc. Zero pressure with regular coolant seemed to work well...BUT,...A mechanic that saw it one day told me something interesting. He told me that, since the boiling point is much lower, it could be boiling around my liners, and I wouldn't know it. He said it could be eating away at the health of my engine.

I couldn't find any definitive answer on this, but what he said made some sense to me. It got me worried, so I dug further, by searching for coolants with a much higher boiling point. That's when I discovered {name removed} Waterless Coolant. I thought to myself,... Hmmm,.. no water,... no need for the stupid 10 feet of copper tubing,... and,... it will not boil over so easily, even at my liners.

Needless to say, that is what I did. I just got enough for filling my radiator plus 6 extra gallons. 3 extra gallons for flushing the system out with, and the other 3 to carry on the truck, in case I sprang a leak. I shut the valve that I put in my coolant tank once a month and pressure test the system with a pressure test kit, to ensure that expensive coolant isn't going to leak out. After switching to that coolant, I did NOT do the resistor thing to the thermostat, like they recommend for some trucks. I didn't want the truck to run hotter. Any ways, since I switched it over, and removed that 10 feet of copper tubing, etc. my truck engine fan comes on a lot less. It seemed the coolant is actually slightly more efficient, but I found out later that it is LESS efficient at wicking away heat. I also noticed I had to change my coolant filter twice as often, because the heavy glycol gets sticky in it. I checked my pipes and fittings to see if they were getting sticky, or corroded, but they all looked good after 600,000 miles, I guess the filter was doing its job of catching its "gummy bear" effects.



AFTER 600,000 MILES!!!!


I would NOT recommend this stuff to others. It seemed to run great for about 400,000 miles or so, but it slowly turned darker and darker. Eventually, it got thick, and I got concerned. I replaced about half of it to the tune of $400.00 and it still kept getting darker. During all this, I had a radiator failure and had to replace it. It seemed like stress got it, so I never blamed the coolant, but I later learned that I was mistaken. Eventually the coolant had a very sour smell (after 600,000 miles), and got so thick, it started having flow issues. After doing a bunch of research,... I found out that it was the cause of my radiator failure as well, because it was anodizing it, causing heat transfer problems. No wonder my engine fan ran less.


I HAD TO REMOVE IT!!!


Well, when i first installed the stuff, I used to recommend it to others, I was happy with it,.... but it turns out that I was wrong and this document reflects what I found pretty accurately...


  Evans Coolant Testing Results.pdf (Size: 75.32 KB / Downloads: 439)

Basically, My radiator anodized on the inside and cracked due to lack of ability towards heat transfer after a while. My coolant filters were plugging up due to the coolant becoming acidic, because with ZERO PRESSURE, the coolant expanding and contracting caused it to take in moisture all the time. This means that it defeats the purpose of having it if my system still needs to be sealed and pressurized with the stuff. I didn't realize that also, when I installed the stuff, it s apparently next to impossible to get the engine and hoses clean enough for this not to happen. It is a big expense to take the truck somewhere to get it flushed and done. I also had other problems, and it was a nightmere of a problem whenever I had any kind of coolant loss issues. Here is a list of most all of the problems I had...

Here is a list of reasons I would NOT recommend it to others...


** It is near impossible to get the system clean enough for it to last long term. It eventually turns black, and starts to cause problems.

** You cannot run it with zero pressure, or it will eventually turn black and go bad. This defeats having it in the first place.

** It has less overall heat transfer, and as turns darker, it causes eventually radiator and other anodizing problems.

** It is damn near impossible to get, and every time we ever had even a slight problem with the truck that was coolant related,.. It was instant panic mode because you can't get it anywhere, nor can you mix it with water without destroying it.

** Opening coolant filters revealed it kept gelling up in them, and leaving some pretty nasty deposits.

** It is thicker than water and harder for the water pump to push around.

** It never dries, and even a tiny seeping type of coolant leak, looks terrible, and looks like an oil leak to the D.O.T.

** It does smell nasty, but has a sweet taste. It can kill animals because of its "sweet" taste if some ends up leaking somewhere on the vehicle. dogs will "lick" it off the bottom of the truck.

** It costs $40.00 a gallon, and is very expensive with NO actual benefits to me since you cannot run it pressure-less long term.


That is my full circle story, I hope it helps someone out there researching this,... I apologize to anyone in advance if they use the stuff because of my earlier recommendations,... It seemed to do its job,... but time and use has provided me with a different outcome.

I suppose I got duped by all that heavy advertising off the XM radio on this one. Maybe i should have done more research before buying so much of it, and wasting all the money.


===================
Here is some info on coolants that I have collected since...

Types of coolants that can be used in a wet-liner Diesel engine (ISX, Detroit, CAT, etc...)

Conventional coolant (usually green)/cheapest -- You need to add an SCA (typically 10 Oz per 4 gallons) and maintain the Nitrate level at all times, checking it at about every oil change... You need to constantly maintain it through testing and additives, or it will will cavitate on the liners and eat through them, destroying the motor. I have seen a few truck owners destroy their engines like this,... These engines are NOT like car engines,... you cannot just dump in green coolant and forget about it,... It HAS to be maintained and monitored closely!.

Here is a picture of what happens to liners with neglected coolant systems and no nitrates!...


(the pitting in this photo is deep enough that coolant started seeping into the cylinders. This happened only a few weeks after someone started using straight water in their engine instead of proper coolant.)


Pre-charged coolant (usually purple, blue, or pink). This stuff is just like cheap GREEN,... but has an initial dose of SCA. You don't need to use additives initially when dumping some in, but it HAS to be maintained just like green coolant after it is put in.

G-05 coolants. Comes pre-charged with SCA package. Occasional Fush is required with this stuff (aout every 300 - 400k miles or so). SCA testing and maintenance is required about 2 times a year.

DEX ( Dexcool) / Orange coolant you see at Wal-Mart, etc... -- NOT very good stuff for a big-rig, and NOT designed for wet-liner engines. It will mix a bit with red in a pinch,... but NOT with green!... It will become very acidic!,... Just stay away from it, that is my recommendation.


Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants (RED Coolant). Come pre-charged with everything needed for wet liners. Testing and maintenance is needed about 2 times a year. It usually will last about 500k miles or more. I think if you want a coolant you can dump in and pretty much forget about,... this is what you should be using.


Specialty coolants -- Evans. Waterless,... There is no testing required for the stuff other than watching its color,... If it turns dark,... It is going bad and getting acidic,... attacking your aluminum components (radiator etc.). It is hard to get if you have a coolant leak,.. and CANNOT be mixed with any other type of coolant,... nor water.

[PuroCumminsPower]

I flushed out Evans out awhile back before it got real black. What helped me was the Fleet guard Restore product. I went with red coolant. What was interesting was I noticed oil temp ran cooler after, especially during pulling hard hills. It would get up to like 245 with red coolant 230.

[Billdozer2]

Just curious, can you mix any of the above coolants? Reason I am asking is because I was running low on coolant one day and the truck stop only had "Peak Fleet Charge Coolant" (which is the pink stuff) and the last time the coolant was flushed, my company put "Delo Extended Life Coolant" (which is red) in the cooling system. I read the back of the Peak stuff and it said it passed Cummins parameters blah-blah-blah. Figured it was ok. I'm not having any issues, but just curious if I may have created a toxic death liquid for my CM2250.

[Rawze]

(03-24-2016 )Billdozer2 Wrote:  Just curious, can you mix any of the above coolants? Reason I am asking is because I was running low on coolant one day and the truck stop only had "Peak Fleet Charge Coolant" (which is the pink stuff) and the last time the coolant was flushed, my company put "Delo Extended Life Coolant" (which is red) in the cooling system. I read the back of the Peak stuff and it said it passed Cummins parameters blah-blah-blah. Figured it was ok. I'm not having any issues, but just curious if I may have created a toxic death liquid for my CM2250.

Have the coolant PH tested with a test strip and you will know for sure.

[Brock]

(03-15-2016 )PuroCumminsPower Wrote:  I flushed out Evans out awhile back before it got real black. What helped me was the Fleet guard Restore product. I went with red coolant. What was interesting was I noticed oil temp ran cooler after, especially during pulling hard hills. It would get up to like 245 with red coolant 230.

That is actually one of their selling features. As rawze stated, the reason for pressuring the cooling system is to raise the waters boiling point in the coolant. With waterless there is no water to boil and this stuffs good over something like 300 degrees. .

They claim you can then put in a higher temp thermostat and make it so your fan will let your engine run warmer before cooling it down. By letting your engine oil run at a higher operating temperature, your engine will run more efficient and save you fuel.

So they claim.

[Rawze]

(05-13-2016 )Brock Wrote:  

(03-15-2016 )PuroCumminsPower Wrote:  I flushed out Evans out awhile back before it got real black. What helped me was the Fleet guard Restore product. I went with red coolant. What was interesting was I noticed oil temp ran cooler after, especially during pulling hard hills. It would get up to like 245 with red coolant 230.

That is actually one of their selling features. As rawze stated, the reason for pressuring the cooling system is to raise the waters boiling point in the coolant. With waterless there is no water to boil and this stuffs good over something like 300 degrees. .

They claim you can then put in a higher temp thermostat and make it so your fan will let your engine run warmer before cooling it down. By letting your engine oil run at a higher operating temperature, your engine will run more efficient and save you fuel.

So they claim.

But they do not tell you that it is truly overpriced, horrible stuff!!!---- --- You would think that for $40 a gallon --- THAT IT WOULD ACTUALLY PROTECT YOUR ENGINE IN SOME WAY!!! -- BUT IT DOES NOT!!!

Here is what it did to my liners and block after 600k miles!!!





I WILL NEVER RUN OR RECOMMEND EVANS TO ANYONE AGAIN!!! -- IT IS HORRIBLE STUFF!

The truck seemed to run cooler,.. but in fact --- it simply was not absorbing heat properly! and it anodized my radiator, and I had to replace that too!.

I had to spend 2 days with paint stripper and rust remover to clean up my block!.

[trucklogger2]

Holy Shnikeez!!

[E_83]

Rawze,

This is excellent info and thank you for being so detailed.
I do have one question for you!
So what about going back to the zero pressure setup with cooper tubing? As you mentioned, your mind was at a split decision between the idea of having no pressure in the cooling system and the comment which that one mechanic made about possibly boiling water around the sleeves!
Would you still recommend having a self made zero pressure system?
If boiling water is a concern, what are your thoughts on having 60/40 red extended life coolant or even 70/30 in the northern colder states. With these ratios, there would be less water present to worry about and with our engine water pump constantly moving the coolant around, I'd like to think the water wouldn't get much of a chance to boil taking in consideration that the engine fan kicks in at 215F and eng. oil doesn't get passed 230F ever, as is the case on my w900 with isx 2250 heavy crude oil hauler in North Dakota.

Let me know your thoughts on this please. I greatly appreciate and respect all your input and help that you do for us out there.

[Signature620]

I'd like to add some observations of my own here, as someone who repairs and maintains a heap of late model trucks.

In most trucks I deal with, I will either see:
blue(fleetguard TecPGXL),
green (paccar AllCool),
red (fleetguard Tec Infinity)
or pink (paccar ELC).

I always find leaks on trucks using red/pink coolants and notice they leak at points you never see leaking on identical units with blue/green coolants - Seeping from the seams of heater control valves for example.

I generally recommend the green coolant Paccar sell because it's cheap, works well and in a pinch you'll be able to top it up with green stuff from a truck stop. You just test it every service and change the filter once or twice a year.

Also try a 10psi cap instead of a 15psi if possible - Especially if you aren't running EGR.