Liner Height

[Running rough]

yes deeres 2 biggest model tractors do indeed use a tier4 final commen rail cummins qsx15, the qsx15 is basicly the same engine as the isx15, ther are a few differences though, different turbo, differnent compresion pistons, and a diferent torque curve, qsx15 are not set up to lug down as far as truck engines the torque tapers off below 1600 rpm where as in a new isx15 you can get full torque down in the lower rpms, i still think cummins uses center bore pistons, jds pss 13.5 litre powerteck engine is a duel turbo single overhead cam design that is an evalution of thier older 12.5 liter but with more bored pistons same stroke, and that engine was very simuler to the famous detroit series 60, aperently detroit and deere went togather to design an engine and then they went thier seperate ways with detriot coming out with the series 60 and deere coming out with the powertec line, anyways the newer 13.5 deere engines use offset bores and it sames it works well for them, this engine can make up to 618 hp and 2050 torque when you look it up on industrial aplictions on thier site and i belive 750 in marine, but for some reason they limit them to 520 in the 9r tractors, and over 600 in thier combines, it begs the question so why even use the cummins, the salesman say it is mostly emissions reasons, i have ran both a 9510r with the deere moter that was chipped, and a 9570r with the cummins, with the chip the deere engine was suppesed to put out the same power as the cummins but i would say it fell short on top end power, however that being said the deere engine has a flatter torque curve meaning it can lug better below 1600 rpm,i like both moters but like the qsx15 because im a cummins fan and i think it looks good painted green, but i would say the deere 13.5 is defintly not a weak engine, it has a lot of cast and rib support in the block along with topstop liners and a massive head, the head on that moter i would say weighs just as much as the block, from looking at it anyways, it heavly uses pulse injection at every engine rpm acording to deere, the injecters and valves are cam actuated from a single overhead cam so it is NOT commen rail but still makes 34000 psi injection presures, it has all the same emission stradigy as the qsx15, egr, dpf,scr, but the qsx15 sames like a simpler engine to work on visially looking at them both,

[Hammerhead]

Cool. Thanks.
Yes it is well known that Deere & Detroit collaborated on the S60. Deere apparently had the original concept, but lacked large scale engine R&D. There was a previous relationship there so they went to Detroit for support. Detroit agreed to hands off the Ag market and had truck, marine, & industrial for it's share.

[Running rough]

but theoreticly if the shim system does not fix the problem shouldnt cummins consider other alternatives like prehaps offset bores, who knows maybe it would not work with thier current rod design, i have heard of 1 2350 that had liner fretting in my area and it probly came from the factory with low protrustion, i can not even confirm that it was a 2350 it was a second hand story, but you dont hear that it is as commen as the 2250 were that is for sure, cummins claims the shim system from the factory fixed the problem, it comes down to workmanship, i think if the factory guys would set every engine .013 -.014 consistently these things would not fret at all maybe even without a shim, but i am sure there is a reason the shim is there,

[Hammerhead]

Just a thought, but perhaps the shim acts as a buffer cushion that absorbs the movement so the block doesn't. And this is why shimmed liners don't fret the block?
Based on the quality of how they machined the block in this thread, and it's supposedly "in spec", it's no wonder they need something to protect themselves from themselves.

[in2trux]

(01-27-2017 )Running rough Wrote:  but theoreticly if the shim system does not fix the problem shouldnt cummins consider other alternatives like prehaps offset bores, who knows maybe it would not work with thier current rod design, i have heard of 1 2350 that had liner fretting in my area and it probly came from the factory with low protrustion, i can not even confirm that it was a 2350 it was a second hand story, but you dont hear that it is as commen as the 2250 were that is for sure, cummins claims the shim system from the factory fixed the problem, it comes down to workmanship, i think if the factory guys would set every engine .013 -.014 consistently these things would not fret at all maybe even without a shim, but i am sure there is a reason the shim is there,

Thanks to Mr. Hagg and Rawze for confirming Cummins "spec" and what they are willing to pass in QC. What we're learning here is how to "blueprint" these engines.
http://www.tractorengineparts.net/why-is...important/

I know most of the shims are done in brass. Our shims where done with stainless and liner height set at .017.
Whether or not SS is better in the long run remains to be seen. Far more likely that Rawze will hit the next million miles long before us to do any kind of comparison. All I know is that it was done with care and precision and should last longer than we're willing to drive it. Max boost is 40 and seldom pushed that far. The plan right now is to do a new head in 3-4 years.

Brass shim stock has long been a standard in machining chucking up a work piece in a lathe. The nature of the soft metal to squish and freeze rotation has merit. My thoughts on this were stainless would resist hammering better on the power stroke side almost as well as the cast iron counter bore, that not knowing the psi rating of the stock Cummins cast iron block.

Too bad we don't have a big enough community (even though we do) that is as interested in building a better after market engine.
https://youtu.be/AKuGnE4V0hI https://youtu.be/jgtaA6xuLcA

The racing community is always pushing the envelope. There is a tremendous amount of blood,sweat,tears and MONEY that have gone into building better engines.

I've bee a Ford fan for over 40 years, my brother Chevy. I've always been the underdog but having an engine that could spin 7500+ and stay together taught me a few things.
Every step of assembly matters.

Just imagine for a minute that if the same energy went into making an 871 that could do that for a lifetime? Not in their best interest, F_ that!

Hammer, if you're interested talk to Gearhead about the SS shims.

[in2trux]

I love the sound of a well built engine, sweet music!
https://youtu.be/u1xlHN7YVWM

[Hammerhead]

I've used brass shims before when building hot rod Harley engines. But that's between the cylinder barrels and the crankcase. The liners were interference fit into the ductile iron cylinder barrels.
I agree that the merits of brass "gripping material" for machining purposes is a well known practice. I'd also like to see a comparison of brass vs SS direct contact liner clamping force.
I don't know my @$$ from a hole in the ground on the subject, but I would suspect the brass would have a "gripping" advantage, however I would think the SS would have a deformity resistance advantage as a harder material...
Folks much smarter than I will have to explain this one to my peabrain.

[Starlight]

This liner issue thread is very timely. I currently have a 2009 871 in the shop with the coolant system pressuring up. It was installed in this truck a year ago as a recon crate engine from cummins. I just finished pulling the head off to repair and found the gasket burned out on cylinder 4 exhaust side and cylinders 2 and 3 very close to burnout as well. Liner protrusions on this engine on the cylinders not burned out is .010 thou. How terrible can it get. The burned out ones i didnt measure but have no reason to believe they were any different before they burned out. This is a high horsepower 2919 CPL and cummins built it with .10 thou liner protrusion. This truck is demandated so he didnt even try for warranty but still goes to show that cummins builds these things to barely make warranty and then need to be inframed. This engine probably had varying liner heights brand new from cummins just like the one Mr Hagg is doing now. Very poor on cummins part but what can we do, I'll be cutting this block so there will be a .014 or .015 protrusion on the liners afterward.

[Starlight]

(01-25-2017 )Hammerhead Wrote:  Hey Rawze when it's time to inframe mine, instead of spending the money on the counterbore cutter and stuff, can I just hire you and fly you and your tool up to do mine instead?

I'd come cut yours in a heartbeat. I'm just "next door" or should I say next province. BC