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Felonygtp · 08-21-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

My turbo is starting to hang up. I looked it up on quickserve and it says i have the he451ve turbo. Is there a better one for it? I would like to stay with the VE turbo but if there is a better one that will fit why not? Is there anybody rebuilding these turbos to make them better? This one isnt dead yet but its definitely got some issue. I've gotten it hot a couple times ever since its been acting up. There really isnt anything wrong with replacing it with the same turbo its got 650k on it and if i wouldve pulled my foot out of it alittle sooner it would probably still be fine. I haven't been able to find any info on turbo swaps. Thanks

Rawze · 08-21-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

What is the origional HP rating on the engine?

Is it de-mandated?, and if so Who did it/how was it done?

What is the current (or expected) HP settings?

What kind of truck? What kind of operation? what is the average torque requirement? -- (I.E. most highway trucks on the USA average about 28-30% torque load on average).

What would you expect to gain/what would be your expected goals from altering the turbo with a different model?

Is fuel mileage more important to you after such a change? -- Or power?

These are good things to think about before considering making changes to the engine design.

JMBT · 08-22-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

Felonygtp: if you got 650k out of that turbo on a mandated truck I would DEFINiTELY put the same exact model back on! It sounds like it did you pretty well! Also a good testament to your driving abilities to get that kind of mileage on a turbo with a tier 4 motor. Kudos to you!

Felonygtp · 08-23-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

It was 525hp stock. It was de-mandated at 300k and supposed to be 625hp. I still get destroyed on hills and in mileage by stock 625hp c-15 cat accert. My guess is its 575hp at the flywheel.

In my operation we run rounds. I go out loaded and come back empty. We mostly run western US. We also run team drivers. My truck is the only Cummins we have. The loads we pull catch so much wind. There has been mulitple times I've been flat to the floor in 17th gear for hours. The loads are usually around 40k but they very alot. Ive been 86000 gross but i've been 35000 gross and not been able to maintain 55mph on flat ground. It doesnt happen alot but it has happened.

So I guess my goals are more torque, less heat and better mileage. If there is a turbo that will support 750hp and 3000ft lb of torque. Im really thinking about cranking the power knob. Maybe not that far but 650hp at the wheel would be nice. So is there any bolt on turbo's that would better suit my goals?

Rawze · 08-23-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

(08-23-2017 )Felonygtp Wrote: It was 525hp stock. It was de-mandated at 300k and supposed to be 625hp. I still get destroyed on hills and in mileage by stock 625hp c-15 cat accert. My guess is its 575hp at the flywheel.

In my operation we run rounds. I go out loaded and come back empty. We mostly run western US. We also run team drivers. My truck is the only Cummins we have. The loads we pull catch so much wind. There has been mulitple times I've been flat to the floor in 17th gear for hours. The loads are usually around 40k but they very alot. Ive been 86000 gross but i've been 35000 gross and not been able to maintain 55mph on flat ground. It doesnt happen alot but it has happened.

So I guess my goals are more torque, less heat and better mileage. If there is a turbo that will support 750hp and 3000ft lb of torque. Im really thinking about cranking the power knob. Maybe not that far but 650hp at the wheel would be nice. So is there any bolt on turbo's that would better suit my goals?

the first order of business is who did the de-mandate? -- there are so many bad deletes out there for the ISX that is is sickening to think about.

What is your boost getting to in a hard pull? -- EGT's? -- Does it even have a boost and pyro gauges?

What was done with the cans under the truck,.. are they all 100% hollowed out for best exhaust flow and minimized heat absorption? --

Did they hollow out the SCR can 100%? - a lot of delete companies get lazy and only drill holes or install pipes and all kinds of restrictive crap. Some even tell their customers that the SCR can don't need hollowing out like a bunch of complete dumbasses.

====

Next: Why the hell do you want to make so much power?-- I guess making a living with it is secondary to stroking your ego? --What a waste of a good engine. re-gearing the truck to suite the operation better would be a whole hell of a lot cheaper and more reliable than trying to make your engine suffer when going up a hill.

MY FORUM IS NOT FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE HELL BENT ON BIG POWER!!!

Felonygtp · 08-23-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

The de-mandate was done by a shop in Mn. I believe it to be a J-ball tune and he was just loading it. The cans are empty and so is the scr. It runs 28- 30 psi of boost. Under normal conditions the pryo runs about 350 to 400 degrees loaded. If its pulling hard ive seen it hit 950 degrees. I usually dont let it get over 700 degrees.

So as far as power goes. It isnt about being king of the mountain or stroking my ego. It isnt about being the fastest truck and running triple digits. Its about time management and efficiency. I have to make miles and deliver at a certain time. If i slow down on every hill it cost me a full day. I dont wanna drive 80mph to make up for going 30 mph up a hill. If i can run an average speed of 65mph i can make more trips. My business revolves around moving as many loads in a short amount of time as possible. My company might move 20 plus loads from cali to texas in 2 weeks. I want to move as many of those loads as I can. Its the reason we run teams and the reason we come back empty. Its also the reason for high HP. Its the reason I dont work all summer yet gross over 400k a year per truck. That is what strokes my ego. Im not a truck driver because I love trucking. Im a truck driver because it makes me money. It lets me have all summer off when the kids are out of school. I dont know if I struck some sort of nerve but it seems like I did. IM NOT ASKING QUESTIONS TO PISS ANYBODY OFF. I WILL JUST SAY I KNOW MY BUSINESS. I KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE MY WORK. BUSINESS WORK. I dont believe that 650hp isnt unrealistic or abusive to a 15l diesel engine. I've owned multiple Caterpillar engines that have made over a million miles before needing overhaul or needed the head removed for that matter. All of them are running over 600hp at the wheels. My last truck is at 1350000 its never had the head off. Last fuel taxes he still averaging 7.48 mpg for all miles. I NEED THIS CUMMINS TO DO THE SAME. It's supposed to be a way better engine than a caterpiller. I know its heavier. It should be able to handle 650hp and 2800 to 3000 lb ft without issues.

I hope maybe that explains my thoughts. Maybe now we can get to a place where my original question can be anwsered. Should I or is there a better turbo for a cm2350? I dont mean bigger, I dont mean more boost if it isnt needed. I want a better bolt on turbo. I dont want to lose the VGT if i dont have to. I dont want to replace manifolds and hack pipes. I dont mind having to reprogram the truck. Im actually looking to do that anyway.
Thanks for any help

Starlight · 08-24-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

You might have more issues than meet the eye but seriously I would get someone credible to look at that j ball tune first.

Rawze · 08-24-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

(08-23-2017 )Felonygtp Wrote: The de-mandate was done by a shop in Mn. I believe it to be a J-ball tune and he was just loading it. The cans are empty and so is the scr. It runs 28- 30 psi of boost. Under normal conditions the pryo runs about 350 to 400 degrees loaded. If its pulling hard ive seen it hit 950 degrees. I usually dont let it get over 700 degrees.

So as far as power goes. It isnt about being king of the mountain or stroking my ego. It isnt about being the fastest truck and running triple digits. Its about time management and efficiency. I have to make miles and deliver at a certain time. If i slow down on every hill it cost me a full day. I dont wanna drive 80mph to make up for going 30 mph up a hill. If i can run an average speed of 65mph i can make more trips. My business revolves around moving as many loads in a short amount of time as possible. My company might move 20 plus loads from cali to texas in 2 weeks. I want to move as many of those loads as I can. Its the reason we run teams and the reason we come back empty. Its also the reason for high HP. Its the reason I dont work all summer yet gross over 400k a year per truck. That is what strokes my ego. Im not a truck driver because I love trucking. Im a truck driver because it makes me money. It lets me have all summer off when the kids are out of school. I dont know if I struck some sort of nerve but it seems like I did. IM NOT ASKING QUESTIONS TO PISS ANYBODY OFF. I WILL JUST SAY I KNOW MY BUSINESS. I KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE MY WORK. BUSINESS WORK. I dont believe that 650hp isnt unrealistic or abusive to a 15l diesel engine. I've owned multiple Caterpillar engines that have made over a million miles before needing overhaul or needed the head removed for that matter. All of them are running over 600hp at the wheels. My last truck is at 1350000 its never had the head off. Last fuel taxes he still averaging 7.48 mpg for all miles. I NEED THIS CUMMINS TO DO THE SAME. It's supposed to be a way better engine than a caterpiller. I know its heavier. It should be able to handle 650hp and 2800 to 3000 lb ft without issues.

I hope maybe that explains my thoughts. Maybe now we can get to a place where my original question can be anwsered. Should I or is there a better turbo for a cm2350? I dont mean bigger, I dont mean more boost if it isnt needed. I want a better bolt on turbo. I dont want to lose the VGT if i dont have to. I dont want to replace manifolds and hack pipes. I dont mind having to reprogram the truck. Im actually looking to do that anyway.
Thanks for any help

FIRST AND FOREMOST!!!---- THAT PARTICULAR MODEL RED ENGINE from the factory can barely handle 600HP as it is, and they struggle not to fret the liners out of them at 1850 torque... 2,000+ is pushing it and yes they come 2050 from factory but everyone who hammers them at that torque for long periods hammers out the liners in them too by the time they get to 600k miles.

Hence my statements above,... I don't know who has been bullS#itting you into thinking they can do more, but those 2350's simply can't unless you make some modifications that require pulling liners out. They raised the compression of that engine to just shy of 19:1 for emissions purposes and HCCI injection and never bothered to correct the liner height in them to handle it well.

That CM2350 is NOWHERE NEAR the same as its older CM870 or CM871 cousins were. They LIKE to have liner and head issues compared to the older models as they are from the factory and have a much higher compression ratio to go along with it. it cannot be compared to older model cummins,.. or that yellow motor you keep blabbering about. -- IT IS NOT THE SAME AT ALL!

So my comments I made above stand. DO you just WANT to tear it up, then have to spend $20,000+ inframing it for fun? -- Because that is what your asking of it regardless of any kind of turbo for it.

The engine CAN DO high torque and HP numbers but you will not get it to do it reliably without

A) Raising the liner height to 0.014" - 0.015" minimum.

B) Hand torquing the head, letting it sit over-night, then re-torquing it again the next day when the engine is re-assembled.

C) Above about 620 HP, even if the torque is kept down, the HE451VE turbo becomes restrictive. The correct solution above this HP rating is the HE551VE or HE561VE. YES, A bigger Holset VG TURBO like the 561VE will allow handle charge flow easily up into the 850+ hp range. Problem is that ANYTHING WHATSOEVER you put on it that is larger, you are going to reduce its responsiveness AND its overall fuel efficiency in doing so. Staying with a VG will reduce this greatly with good programming, but there is still losses in efficiency no matter what you do.

Bigger turbo = less overall response, more airflow to get it moving, and lower overall fuel efficiency,.. Smaller turbo = better response and higher fuel efficiency. That is the law of diesel engines regardless of what you put on it or try. Even the engine makers themselves cannot overcome that, otherwise they would have come up with a "one size fits all" solution years and years ago.

=====

I FEEL REALLY SORRY FOR YOUR ENGINE!!! -- If you have let those complete engine butchering crooks program it!!!... here is some reading for you..
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...01#pid5901

STEP NUMBER ONE ABOVE ALL ELSE IS TO GET THAT CRAP PROGRAMMING YOU LIKELY PAID WAY TOO MUCH MONEY FOR OUT OF THAT ENGINE!!! -- YOU HAVE A BAD DELETE!!!

And if your hell bent on dis-believing it, then your more than welcome to stop by sometime and I can show you every line of code they changed and how it is effecting your engine, good, bad, or otherwise so that you can be your own judge. -- I have not seen a single program by those brain butchers EVER that was even remotely correct, why should you be the exception?

===

Lastly,.. around here, I tend to keep things on the side of realistic and the BS away. There is already too much of that crap on the Internet for this place to repeat it. I am about making money through SLOWING DOWN and increasing longevity, and SAVING FUEL ABOVE ALL in protest of all those places hell bent on taking every dime the average truck owner out here makes, including and especially big oil!. -- Therefore I get onto the arsse of EVERYBODY EQUALLY who comes around wanting more more more power and STILL,... even if my own operation required my truck to "sling around" such heavy weights more violently than the average joe --- I WOULD GEAR THE TRUCK FOR IT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE THE ENGINE BIGGER!. -- You will not get sympathy from me when your standing there wondering why you can't keep a head gasket in it, especially on a CM2350. That is the road you clearly are hell bent on taking with that particular model engine. YOU SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN AN OLDER MODEL ENGINE WITH LOWER COMPRESSION RATIOS if it is that much important to push it beyond its design and expect it to hold up for any length of time but even so,.. gearing the truck better so that it stays in its upper end of its working range during such abuse prevails above all else. they LIKE 1650 - 1700 RPM when working their hardest. Lower = more internal vibration and shorter engine life over the long term.

Those 2350's in particular, more than any previous model engine USED EGR GAS ALOMST EXCLUSIVELY to control burn length in them to keep piston side-load and detonation down while under higher compression, and guess what --- YOU REMOVED IT!

Reference: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1823

-- And therefore it is now extremely sensitive in its programming and prone to hammering the liners out if it without that gas. It can be done properly without EGR, even at the power levels you are talking about but it is extremely difficult to achieve at high HP. Those over-priced ignorant brain butchers you have let program it are nowhere near close to getting it right last time I saw their programming. That is most likely the biggest problem it has towards "feeling weak" compared to other trucks more-so than anything else. After that, you need to consider what gear ratio and rpm range you want to keep it in while pulling hard with it if you want it "stronger". -- Last should be the modifications to the engine to gain more power/torque, because it will be an inevitability that you will be tearing it completely apart to get it there if you want that 650+ and big torque,.. because that is where you are headed with it. -- WASTE OF MONEY AND RESOURCES if you ask me, but guyus who are bent on all that power never ever listen and than cry like hell and blame everything but the fact they are asking for too much when things go south. they NEVER LISTEN!.

To even consider achieving that kind of results realistically out of that model engine, and iot hold together for more than 100k miles at a time, you will need to ...

* Re-gear the truck so that is in the 1650-1750 rpm range when pulling its hardest!. Any truck with taller gears than it should have is a complete dog no matter the HP and torque you put in it. You never mentioned the gearing of the truck.

* Tear the engine down and raise the liner height because at 650+ HP and more torque YOU ARE GOING TO LOOSE THE HEAD + gasket and fret the block prematurely and all the other things that no one wants. The liner height is TOO LOW from the factory on that model engine for that kind of power. -- In fact, I hope you got your money saved up for this because it is likely already on its way if you have been driving it with that s#it programming from that big name tuner company for more than a few weeks.

* Yes, after you have higher liners and have made other mods so the engine can handle it better, a bigger VG Holset is required above about 620 hp or so or at 600 and high average engine loads placed on it long term. Problem is that it is going to cost you some fuel mileage and response on the lower end, despite what anyone else says. I have seen it too many times. Staying with a VG will mitigate this as best possible. A lot of guys use the Holset HX60 (non-vg) because they are a close fit alternative but myself, I would not want to have a turbo that I could not program to pre-spool and do other things to help mitigate these issues. It just makes more sense to have a programmable turbo vs not, especially when high hp VG turbos are easily available.

Even so, I will iterate it again because that is what I do (perhaps the glass of wine I have here talking too) ...

It seems here lately, there is a lot of guys who "think their engine can do it" with no understanding of how it is made or what expected tolerances it actually has, so somehow it is supposed to miracle itself into doing so? -- How about throwing out that thought and start being on the side of "what it is most likely to tolerate safely" and "what would be the realistic outcome" instead. -- Even still,.. I have never understood WHY someone is so hell bent on more, more. It makes no business sense to spend $20,000 - $30,000 two or three times more often than they should be over the life of what they do because some other joe says it can be done. - I will never be convinced of this...-- ever, and every single person I have met with this attitude always makes less and has more problems for it in the end.

Felonygtp · 08-24-2017, **(Subject: cm2350 turbo )**

I cant lose mileage empty. The gains would have to be huge loaded to equal out. The main reason to be geared higher is to be able run lower rpms and get better mileage empty. In its current state the engine simply doesnt perform above 1650 rpm. Its like it hits a brick wall that high. At high loads I operate in the 1400-1600 rpm range. Maybe the only reason its still alive.

I've done some reading on tuning, I paid for an insite subscription and installed cal-term. I'm just not comfortable enough yet to use it. I dont know if i have the right file to open my tune in calterm. So i still got alot to learn before I dive into looking at the tune thats in my truck. Once i get more familier with the programs and actually look at my tune I will probably cry. Then find someone to help me fix it. Then probably cry somemore when i pay for that.

In all reality the money i've spent for the removal of the mandate wasnt worth it. There wasn't any problems to be fixed by removing it. The issues that i had to fix had nothing to do with those systems. The only benfit has been the oil stays clean. I didnt gain much for performance or efficiency. I might have avoided some issue that had not been seen
yet.

There isnt much I can do with the liner height issue. If i want the HP i guess I pull the head. Then whats the next issue? The stock size turbo building to much heat, the block breaking, crank snapping, or the head itself cracking? Then always worry about if you had the right guy do the rebuild. If its so easy to get a bad de-mandate it must be just as easy to find a bad mechanic. I'm sure it wont break at home they never do.

So does anybody know if they fixed the liner height issues in the X15? It might be a better option to replace this turbo and fix the programming. Then sell this truck and buy a new one. I dont want to sell a truck thats all messed up.

Thanks again.