| If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... |
| 08-09-2016, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #1 | |||
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| If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... Someone asked me to post a few words about the good vs bad delete delima that everyone argues about, so here goes ... This info is for those who live in countries that allow such things, how would you know if what you are going to have done is of any quality? ... Here goes... Spotting a good "Non-EGR" program/mod/Delete vs a bad one ... (this info is only for for those who live in places that allow such modifications) ... Things I have seen that qualify them as "Bad"... --- The delete company proclaiming that Holset VGt's are "junk" or "garbage", them trying to sell you some after-market manifolds and turbo's. - This knocks the engine efficiency down by quite a bit and has no relevance to power gains at all. Even if someone is looking for large HP increases, a larger Holset (usually A VGT as well) is still the best choice. --- Bad delete companies do not bother installing Boost and Pyro gauges because they could care less about the actual long term health of the engine. They also do bother to test drive the vehicle to ensure all adjustments are within spec. Most of them are not even smart enough to even make these types of adjustments and corrections because if they did, then they would know well that every truck has to be tested and dialed in for correct operation. There is no such thing as "one program fits all" after such extreme modifications to the exhaust, EGr, and intake circuits are made. These things must be compensated for correctly and adjusted "per individual truck" to get them right. --- Bad delete companies do not re-program the turbocharger, typically ignoring it completely, proclaiming they use the "factory" settings for it. This is extremely bad and causes shortened engine and turbocharger life. Altering exhaust, EGr, and intake components drastically alters how the turbocharger operates, so leaving it "stock" will cause its (or the engines) eventual damage. This is also why so many bad delete companies are quick to encourage its removal, or claim they fail after a delete. It is because they themselves ARE the cause of such failures by their own sheer lack of understanding this. --- Since many delete companies do not know how to correctly re-program the turbocharger, they most often will encourage its removal and promote some less-efficient Borg-Werner undersized 12-lire turbo, or some other crap like the Big-Boss (re-labeled borg Werner) along with after-market manifolds etc. These after-market mods ACTUALLY CREATE LOWER ENGINE EFFICIENCY AND LESS POWER CAPACITY THAN THE FACTORY COMPONENTS!. This is all in the name of runing up the price of the delete with component sales and it stems from them being simply too stupid to re-program the Holset correctly to begin with. This is especially apparent when someone knows that the factory Holset turbochargers on the CM870/871can easily keep up with the engine well into the 800+HP range all on their own, and that even the smaller Holsets on the newer CM2250/2350 engines are well capable of 700+Hp. Even if someone was building an engine for competition, and exceeding these limits, a BIGGER VG HOLSET will still out-perform anything else out there. Even so, when it is left on, it is quite often they will only "open" the DOC/DPF/SCR filters partially, or only drill them out by 4 inches or so instead of opening them most of the way like they should be. They use excuses like "Diesels need back-pressure" and other lame brainwashing tactics to try to fool their customers into thinking they are doing something good instead. They do this to keep some back-pressure in to slow down the turbocharger because they did not re-program it, in hopes it will not over-spool so badly, but in the end, they simply are trading away engine efficiency and causing the turbocharger to constantly overheat. This also leads to a shortened lifespan of injectors and possibly pistons because the extra heat produced from operating on only clean air cannot escape the exhaust fast enough. The correct solution is to open up the exhaust flow as much as possible and re-program the turbocharger correctly for the new flow rates, but it is extremely rare to see anyone take the time to do this. -- Many bad delete companies will not even bother to hollow out or remove the SCR can on the newer engines. They are welded/sealed shut and difficult to hollow out. This leads to all sorts of problems later on with exhaust restrictions. That SCR can will indeed eventually clog up and create some serious engine problems because the DPF is no longer there to trap soot and keep it clean. they will usually give excuses like "it is a passive device" or some other lame BS. -- I've seen damaged engines and clogged up SCR cans several months after delete is done. All cans need to be open 100%. --- Bad delete companies steal each others files and are notorious for adding fuel to the engine by "fooling it" in some way to overcome internal efficiency losses. This results in unpredictable power and torque changes and is bad for the engine and drive train of the vehicle. If you are someone driving a truck that has a bad delete and it "feels" like it has more power, it does not mean it has been done correctly and not causing any long term damage. There is such a thing as "good" power vs "bad" power. Many of these "tunes" will show a certain HP setting when connecting to the truck with engine software, but this setting can be very deceiving and/or set to whatever someone wants you to see and believe instead of what is actually going on. --- The oil will not typically stay nearly as "clean looking" for tens of thousands of miles at a time in a truck with a bad delete. It should certainly have less soot content, but a bad delete creates excess internal engine wear and still allows for the production of soot (black smoke out of the tail pipe). For these reasons, the oil will not stay bright yellow like it came from the bottle. It is a difficult thing to achieve high efficiency from a diesel engine where the oil stays clean for thousands of miles at a time. Very clean oil can be achieved, but most bad delete companies have no clue how to program the engine with proper efficiency to get it there. -- What color is your oil? (If it is black all the time I say --- Yuk!). --- The engine will "jump" operating modes because the EGR has not been switched off properly or sensors bypassed with software. This causes instability at high altitudes or when the engine needs to change modes to compensate for city or highway driving and/or for internal thermal management. Long term, this can lead to eventual engine damage, as the ECM is usually always somewhat "confused" as to what it needs to be doing. Heck, most of these self-proclaimed "custom tuners" cannot even tell you how many operating modes these modern engines have or what they are even used for. Yes, there are main operating modes like city, highway, temperature management, high altitude, cold warmup, various regen modes, and even non-emissions modes built right into these engines and it switches modes based on all the sensor reading and the environment. -- What engine mode is your engine in after custom tuning? ... --- Many incompetent "delete companies" will block coolant flow off through the EGR cooler in an attempt to eliminate the component. For any engine newer than a CM870, this is a very bad thing to do on an ISX engine because the coolant flow through the device also helps feed the back half of the oil cooler and engine. The result is increased oil temps and imbalance in engine block temperatures. Also, since this circuit is a direct feed from the pump, separate from the rest of the system, the blocked passage for coolant will build to very high pressures (70+ PSI), face-loading the water pump and shortening its lifespan. Since it is a separate feed from the pump, the high pressures will also not be seen by the rest of the coolant system, and everything will seem normal, but it is not. --- Bad delete companies will NOT ensure your engine is in good operating order at all. They will not bother to check your overhead valve adjustment, or sensors, or anything else related to how well the engine actually runs. They simply want your money and could care less as to why you were having emissions problems to begin with. THIS IS VERY BAD! --- The reason WHY someone had emissions problems IS IN FACT BECAUSE the engine is not running well to begin with! --- Most "delete" tuners will try to eliminate as many sensors from the engine as possible in an attempt to knock it into the stone age. This is a very bad thing to do as most of these modern engines do not have the "toughness" or thickness of components that older engines had that could withstand such blatant abuse. That extra inch of steel thickness is not on those pistons any more, but instead is in that computer as precision control. The trade-off of more delicate components in these newer engines is better fuel efficiency etc. Because of this, absolute precise control, of the engine is required to prevent a shortened lifespan on components. Defeating the sensors that give the ECM these abilities directly results in less control by the ECM and a shortened engine life. --- Many Delete companies do not have the equipment or testing methods in place to properly adjust fueling, timing, fuel-air ratio, charge flow, etc. -- These things are effected heavily by simply removing or "hollowing" those Emissions components and drastically alter how the engine runs. Since most do not have this ability to adjust things properly, they resort to copying the work of other tuners and copying maps from different model engines etc. instead of doing research and doing testing. Most simply just want your money and could care less how bad their programming really is. It also takes a seriously blind fool to think that a single "tune" will fit various different brand, make, and model trucks. It is the equivalent in stupidity to saying to themselves that "an engine is an engine" while pointing to a lawn mower, then to a truck engine. -- Still, other big-name multi-million dollar companies that do "Deletes" that in fact DO have Dyno testing etc. seem to have the absolute worst "tunes" of all out there. They have the equipment,.. They have the means to correct what they do and improve upon it,.. Yet they are the worst of them all hands down!. It is these companies that everyone copies from and those bad methods spread like a virus throughout the "tuner" community. Those big-name companies are only interested in making more power by any means necessary and higher profits instead of using the equipment to make something of good quality instead. Get you in, take your money, dyno it and brag about the power, and send you out the door... When it blows up, they suddenly don't know who you are any more, telling you that you should have bought that junk of an after-market turbo. --- Most "tuners" are so incredibly blind to how a modern diesel engine works, that they are quick to do very stupid things like "dump in more fuel" or "add more boost" like ignorant pick-up truck tuners would do in their back yard to alter power settings, then wonder why it only took 40% of the engine power rating to send a piston through the side of the block, or hammer the crankshaft bearings flat, sending cylinder pressure 4 or 5 times higher than they should be for that same given power output. -- I shake my head in dismay every time I see this inside someones ECM. --- Almost every single person i have talked to or met that claims they know how do to custom tuning and deletes have no idea how the combustion process works in these newer engines. this leads them to set timing advance and other settings that are harmful and damaging to the engine long term. Here is a more recent article on just this problem... A few words about tuning these newer style engines --- I have yet to see but only a couple people ever actually adjust the torque curve, HP, fuel-air, charge flow, exhaust flow, and all the other engine parameters based on the make and model truck the engine actually belongs in. This sheer stupidity of an attitude that all these engine are similar/ or the same and require roughly the same settings is a complete shame. It is truly sickening when I see this inside someones engine, and they will defend this type of ignorance with this "Holier than thou" attitude quickly instead of asking to themselves what they might have done wrong when someone has severe engine damage as a result. --- Most Delete companies and tuners have no clue how to accurately control the final point of peak cylinder pressure (final crank angle or CA as it is referred to), and these modern diesel engine rely very heavily on this to hold themselves together. They have no clue that "adding fuel" alters this, or "adding air" alters this, or that 10 degrees change in intake temp will cause roughly 300 PSI more in the cylinder, and that it must be compensated for. -- These modern engines are exponentially complex and difficult to actually get right, yet there seems to be a surplus of idiots with a laptop talking a good game, claiming they know what they are doing. -- Yuk!. --- Most "delete" companies willing to rip you off do not offer updates, or offer a wide variation of programming based on your particular needs. The reason for this, is that they have no clue how to alter the programming correctly. Most of what they have has been stolen from someone else, or stolen from the Internet and hacked up. -- Not keeping what you do up to date and not offering updates to your customers is flat out a dumb idea. Updating your ECM with the latest software and changes that improve its abilities, efficiency, and operation is very important. Even the engine makers themselves produce updates for these same reasons, and a lot of those updates have nothing to do with emissions. --- Bad delete companies will brag heavily at how much higher your fuel mileage will be. I have heard claims as high as 2 or 3 MPG or more!. This is a big red flag right away because when you add fuel without he ECM knowing it, the fuel mileage readings in the dash get thrown way out of whack and it reads much higher in the dash. The result is your dash telling you that the engine is much more efficient but in reality if you measure the gallons vs miles you drove it, you get something very different. Those reading you get in the dash are only as good as what someone who is doing tuning work wants you to see. - Removing the exhaust restrictions alone will make one more efficient by quite a little bit, this is nothing new, but making and bragging about high increases is a sign of bad programming practice most of all. Never trust what your dash tells you for fuel mileage. Esp. if someone was digging around inside your ECM. --- Most "Delete" companies will take great effort to try to keep you from knowing what they did inside your ECM. They not only want to hide it from you, but will refuse to let you have a backup or copy of your file. THEY WANT YOUR MONEY!!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!! -- THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU OR YOUR TRUCK! - Many use the excuse that they don't want others "copying" their "tune" but I hate to burst their bubble --- YOU CANNOT HIDE YOUR PROGRAM!!! -- THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY TO GET IT AND LOOK TO SEE WHAT YOU DID--- It is simply an attempt for them to "OWN YOU AND YOUR TRUCK" if god forbid you even do need to replace your ECM or other component that needs re-programming. -- I have heard stories and excuses like "Connect to it and it deletes itself",.. or "try to copy it and it will become a brick" -- and all the sort of bad excuses from idiots out there who rip off their customers. When you start hearing that from their mouth, you know your dealing with a real crook at this point. -- My suggestion -- slowly and cautiously,... walk away. What a horror story of typical problems these places make for their customers and their engines ... But sadly, this is MOST of the so-called Tuners running around out there with fancy names and big advertising dollars behind them. It is absolutely horrible what some of these guys do to the inside of your ECM and engine and many of them are big name multi-million dollar companies. Things I have seen caused by bad deletes ... Here are some signs/after-effects of some of the bad deletes I have seen before. Not all trucks will have these symptoms, some were worse than others... * Some bad deletes will cause Repeating Turbocharger failures( I have seen some so incredibly bad, that the turbo would only last a few days at a time). * Some bad deletes will cause Repeating head gasket failures (excess cylinder pressures). * Some bad deletes will cause Repeating piston failures(Detonation). * Some bad deletes will cause Hammered out crankshaft bearings(too low of final crank angles). * Many bad deletes will cause Excess internal engine vibration, usually in the 1300-1400 RPM range on the ISX (loo low of final crank angles). * Many bad deletes are programmed incorrectly and will cause increased internal engine friction. You will see it as increased oil temperatures. This shortens the life of everything in the engine. * Repeating injector and/or fuel pump failures (common with glider kit engines that have bad programming in them too). * Bad deletes where the VG turbo was removed and after-market junk put on, leading to a myrad of engine problems, poor engine efficiency, lack of proper final crank angle control, black smoke at low RPM issues, and black oil all the time. * Many bad deletes will cause Excess boost (very common) issues that eventually lead to a cracked head or head gasket failure, and/or piston and/or injector damage. ---- ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM BOOST PRESSURES BEFORE DAMAGE WILL START TO OCCUR!... ---- CM870/CM871 = 39-40 PSI ---- CM2250 = 34-36 PSI ---- CM2350 = 30-33 PSI - If your boost levels are above these ranges,.. You have a bad delete. The CM871 engine seems to be the engine with the most problems associated with this. I have seen bad deletes on them where the boost goes above 43-45 psi, eventually causing the head to crack in several places, even if power levels are kept/set low. * Some bad deletes will cause too low of boost levels(causes excess exhaust temps and engine deficiencies). This is quite common on CM870 engines and can be seen when climbing a hill. The boost will usually spike about 34+, then fall back to 32 PSI, or simply will only produce 32 psi maximum. A sign of a bad CM870 delete for sure (also happens when you simply unplug the EGR valve without re-programming). This usually results in 30-40% shorter lifespan in the turbocharger and other problems due to the higher exhaust heat all time. * Some bad deletes will cause the turbocharger to operate erratically -- Without EGR, A diesel engine does not need boost pressure unless it is under a heavy torque load. I have seen countless bad deletes where the turbo erratically goes to a high position at idle and try to make boost all the time. This is a tell-tale sign of a bad delete and the turbo operating out of proper control. * The Delete shop did not bother to check/replace the most important sensors on the engine like the IMAP and exhaust back-pressure sensors. These sensors control proper fuel/air mixture, etc. and most of the time, they are already bad when someone wants a delete, causing a lot of emissions system failures already. * Some bad deletes will cause black smoke when you press the accelerator hard. There is no reason whatsoever for a modern diesel engine to produce black smoke. It is simply bad programming and bad/antiquated practices that make them do this. * Some bad deletes will cause communications issues between the engine and truck. * The DOC, DPF, and/or SCR cans not being hollowed out all the way, leading to reflection of exhaust heat and shortened turbo, piston, head, and/or injector life. About 80% of all the bad deletes I have seen, the "cans" had to be re-worked while straightening out all the other bad things that someone did. Almost always, the morons drill a bunch of small holes, or only make a 4" hole in the center of the element(s). This is still very bad for the engine and causes too much reflected heat. * Block-plates that were made from aluminum and/or mild steel, galvanized steel, or poor quality stainless, that eventually fail (sometimes in a short time) that eventually destroy either the engine itself, or the turbocharger when the pieces and/or rust buildup went through the engine and/or turbo. * NO boost AND pyro gauge installed to assist the driver in monitoring the health of the engine. With EGR removed/blocked,. etc. the engine has no more regulation of exhaust temps at all. Without these gauges, you will have no clue whatsoever how well the engine is running, how much boost you are producing, or if you are overheating your turbocharger. These modern engines do have limits that must be maintained, and without these gauges, you are driving around in the dark, just waiting for an engine or turbocharger failure. =============================================================== In my book, What I would expect from a GOOD/DECENT Delete ... --- The turbocharger is kept original/ is still a VGT and has been properly re-programmed so that it stays at a low position at idle and is commanded to only spool up when needed. This minimizes exhaust flow restrictions at the manifold increasing engine efficiency and reduces heat greatly. Non-VG turbochargers can not compete with this at all. Also, Holset turbochargers in particular are literally the market leader right now in efficiency and design, not kidding, so if anyone is trying to tell you that it needs to be removed, they are seriously wacked in the head!. Why would anyone "want" to remove something VERY fuel efficient and replace it with something LESS. That old BS excuse that non-vg lasts longer is nothing more than simple minded brainwashing garbage excuse for them not to have to program the VG correctly. --- Boost and Pyrometer gauges have been installed so that the engines health can be monitored and everything kept in check. --- When the tuning was done, The truck was test driven to ensure the boost can not exceed ... -------- 38-39 (40 max)PSI for a CM870 or CM871 -------- 34-36 (37 max)PSI for a CM2250 -------- 30-32 (34 max)PSI for a CM2350 --- The Horsepower of the engine set to something reasonable for hauling freight instead of something ridiculous, and it done so in a way that the ECM knows exactly what is going on. Not some settings that fool it into dumping in more fuel blindly. These ECM's can make a WHOLE LOT OF GOOD CLEAN POWER if you simply ask them to correctly. --- Oil stays same color as it came from the bottle for about 15-18k miles at a time, indicating reduced wear in the engine and clean burning fuel. --- The engine set to operate in its proper main NON-EGR operating mode(s). --- Exhaust components have been adjusted to completely maximize exhaust HEAT flow. This means hollowing out the cans almost completely instead of drilling a bunch of tiny or small holes. The more "open" the exhaust flow, the better by leaps and bounds. It is not "air" your trying to get to flow good,.. but "heat", and anything that can reflect or absorb "heat" in the exhaust is a bad thing. --- Coolant flow has not been blocked off through the EGR cooler. This would be a bad thing, as that coolant is used to cool the back half of the engine and oil cooler as well. --- The engine actually checked, overhead valves re-adjusted, sensors replaced, Charge air system checked, etc.etc.etc. -- THERE IS A REASON WHY TRUCKS HAVE EMISSIONS SYSTEM PROBLEMS! -- It is because the engine is NOT in good health!. ANYONE worth their salt will assist in evaluating why you were having issues and will take the time to ensure the engine is in good health during the delete process. It is very important to identify, adjust, and correct those things that could continue to plague the engine and/or truck after the delete so that the end result is NOT more problems. --- The various engine sensors that are used to calculate good/proper combustion have been replaced and are up to date/verified for accuracy. They also have NOT been defeated. Sensors like the IMAP, Exhaust pressure, turbo inlet temp, fuel pressure and temp, Altitude, Ambient, etc. sensors are in very good shape and operating correctly. Most "Delete" shops will not even take out the IMAP sensor to see it if it plugged up with soot and reading incorrectly, or verify that the engine is getting its correct feedback data. A good Delete or custom tuner should ALWAYS verify this stuff before doing any kind of adjustments/delete. --- The torque curve has been set properly to maximize the use of the type of transmission and rear end of the truck. --- The fuel, air and injection mapping has been adjusted to prevent detonation and/or too low of a final crank angle to prevent a shortened engine life. It has also been adjusted to maximize fuel and overall engine output efficiency. --- Have regular software updates available with the latest efficiency and other mappings. --- The ability to obtain and keep your own program backups in case the ECM ever fails. GOD only knows that some day you will need for it to be put back in, or have it put into a replacement ECM. Having planned for this contention is only proper, and separates you from being solely reliant on who did the work. Who knows where that person will be 5 or 10 years from now. ======================================== ======================================== Summing it up ... ======================================== Now tell me how many of those so-called "delete" shops are actually like/capable of this?,... ALMOST NONE! --- But I do know of a very few that excel at doing things this way. it is not impossible to get it done right, but VERY EASY to find someone willing to take you for all you are worth and leave you with shotty programming and bad mods in return. references: The bad delete collection .. http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...5#pid13255 | |||
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| 08-15-2016, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #2 | |||
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| RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... Have a few questions where do you install the pyro do you drill and tap the piece that bolts to the turbo before the exhaust pipe .I already have a boost gauge .also how much can the timing and fuel actuators affect the fuel mileage. Truck has 860 on the clock and I don't think they have been replaced. Thanks | |||
| 08-15-2016, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #3 | |||
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RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... (08-15-2016 )Lewiss873 Wrote: Have a few questions where do you install the pyro do you drill and tap the piece that bolts to the turbo before the exhaust pipe .I already have a boost gauge .also how much can the timing and fuel actuators affect the fuel mileage. Truck has 860 on the clock and I don't think they have been replaced. Thanks https://youtu.be/lUeYsQY0ykM User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
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| 08-20-2016, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #4 | |||
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| RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... If i lived in countries that allow such things who could i talk to about doing this to a 2012 Volvo with a ISX? | |||
| 08-21-2016, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #5 | |||
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| RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... | |||
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| 01-12-2023, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #6 | |||
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| RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... thanks for sharing this knowledge. In my city there is a plague of bad deletes. I hope to learn more with you guys. | |||
| 01-12-2023, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #7 | |||
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RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... (01-12-2023 )Deeoux Wrote: thanks for sharing this knowledge. In my city there is a plague of bad deletes. I hope to learn more with you guys. If you want to review or discuss the details of what is inside some files sometime, then my mumble server is the preferred place for such things. After installing the mumble app, the server name to connect to is 'mumble.rawze.com' I am usually around on therein the afternoons and evenings. User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
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| 01-14-2023, (Subject: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... ) Post: #8 | |||
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RE: If i lived in a foriegn Country What would I look for ... (01-12-2023 )Rawze Wrote:Thank you very much, I appreciate the invitation, I'll be there as soon as I install mumble on my cell phone, have a good day.(01-12-2023 )Deeoux Wrote: thanks for sharing this knowledge. In my city there is a plague of bad deletes. I hope to learn more with you guys. | |||
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