Yet another, cm2350 overheating

[Vengeance]

Hello everyone, thanks for letting me be a part of the group! Over the years this has become the first place I look when troubleshooting.

First off I've been driving for a little over 12 years. After leasing several trucks off and on, I finally developeded that brain injury some of us are familiar with, or possibly some undiagnosed metal health issue, and decided to just buy my own truck last summer. I actually love my truck, took forever to find anything close to what I wanted, felt like I paid too much, then 2022 and it's worth double what I paid, go figure.

I do all the work I can physically do myself. I'm self/internet taught, so that means Cummins and English don't always translate well.

This has turned into a long term nightmare, I've read so many posts all over the internet that they all blur together.

I'll try to be as precise as I can, I have talked to mechanics at Cummins, Kenworth, and everywhere else I run into someone that might have an idea. I won't let anyone throw parts at it, or diagnose me into bankruptcy.

Forgive me, this will be VERY long.

Truck is a 2015 Kenworth W900, Cummins ISX 15 X101 CM2350, purchased with 633125 miles, currently has 794689 miles and 26553 hours. Hasn't given me any more issues than any other used truck, not deleted, not modified (my thanks to Rawze for his post on the dangers of modifying these engines)

A few months ago driving in Utah, stiff headwind long grades, outside temp around 75, the CEL came on, noticed coolant temperature was 230, oil 245. Coolant never would come down much past 200-210. Oil 220-245. Even at idle coolant was 205-210 with the fan off and on constantly. And yes it blows the right direction, hard enough to blow my hat off if I get too close. Temps verified with my temperature gun.

Did some research, got it home to Alabama, decided it was time to do the whole EGR tune up bit while I was there, clean the DPF etc. I had some cash to spare, had been saving up for a clutch I knew was coming....

Replaced: coolant thermostat, coolant temperature sensor, oil thermostat.

Cleaned out the half plugged EGR cooler. (BTW Rawze, Amazon feeding tube cleaners, which are 3 foot long wire brushes are the perfect size for this)

Cleaned and Checked out the oil cooler while I was there, don't have any oil/coolant cross contamination so not concerned.

Turbo had some soot, but not coated, caked, or even completely covering the vanes. Spun quietly and smoothly.

Put it all back together, next run hauling ass up I-29 in Iowa, outside temp is 101, coolant around 190 oil 225. Fan comes on occasionally. Everything just as it should be.

That lasted a week. Then right back to overheating. I have no idea if something I did fixed it or if it was just coincidence. I really haven't wanted to take everything off that half of the engine again, mostly because it doesn't make sense. It's a coolant temperature issue not an oil temperature issue, right?

Headed up to Billings MT, middle of the night, nice and cool out, I'm west of Broadus MT climbing the hill, and it derates, too hot again. Few miles down the road the clutch I once had the money saved up for gives out. So I take it in to MotorPower in Billings on a Saturday, and they start on it that Monday. I just can't do the clutch myself, without a proper shop and equipment. Needed a new rear seal too. I do actually recommend this place, they have reasonable rates for a dealership and try to keep the costs down. They couldn't see any obvious reason for it to be running hot, and even reasonable dealership labor is expensive. And without an obvious cause I knew it would be a game of throw-a-part. IF I HAD ONLY KNOWN THEN WHAT I KNOW NOW!

So trucks gotta run, bills have to be paid by this point. I'm out the door with my nice new clutch.

I know someone is gonna give me a hard time about it, but I was getting by with running the fan, and driving it a little easier. Problem managed while I try to figure out the cause and solution. I agree that band-aid fixes are bad, but needs must. I made it 135 miles, then boom top radiator hose blew, middle of nowhere between WY and NE. Those damn fancy metal rings they use to make them stronger rubbed right thru it. So nice guy at O'Reillys runs out to me with 4 gallons of coolant and the second most expensive hose I've ever bought. While I'm waiting and since the coolant is already drained enough, I replaced the thermostat again, I had already picked one up thinking maybe I just got a bad one. Problem fixed, but still overheating.

So I'm driving and thinking, and I decide to stop and replace the coolant filter. I pull the old one off, and I find two small strips of plastic in the top of the filter. I wish I had taken a picture, but the closest description I can give is like someone squirted two half inch lines of Elmer's glue out and let them dry, then peeled them up. So right then I pulled the dremel out and cut the old filter open. Nothing.

Made it maybe another 75 miles and I hear a belt squeal. Opened the hood and I thought the whole damn engine had blown apart. Oil everywhere, dripping off everything, so I thought that's it! In frame time! A little bit later, and with calmer nerves I start looking, and I notice the rubber plug covering where you bar the engine over is missing. That little trickle of oil plus the fan made a huge mess. Then I notice the coolant is low, I had just topped it off when I changed the filter. I look more and I see coolant bubbling from the exhaust pipe on the EGR cooler intake. Then I started putting it together, leaking EGR cooler, increased pressure in the cooling system caused a hose to blow, and explains the overheating!

So I found a reasonable tow company, yet another I'll recommend, Little Tornado, somewhere around Ogalla NE. Got the truck towed to MHC in Cheyenne. Three days later I've got a new EGR cooler, and I bobtail back to where I left my loaded trailer in NE. I'm thinking, Finally! Fixed! And for the first time that extended warranty covered something, or at least half of something.

Get hooked up and rolling, and guess what, damn thing is still overheating, really I should say running hot, it hasn't reached a point where it's hot like pull over now. But right on the edge of that.

So at this point I'm thinking it's got to be coolant flow or heat exchange. I remember reading about some of these engines having plastic for parts of the water pump. So stop by fleetpride and grab a new water pump. By now I'm becoming more willing to throw parts at it, with at least some educated guessing. A few hours in the dirt at the truck stop and I've replaced the water pump, twice because the new O-ring wouldn't seal. Still not fixed.


On top of that another of its long term issues, random off and on again low fuel rail pressure, is acting up. Never been a huge thing, once a month or maybe for several days in a row every few months the truck would just die after stopping when it's been running hard. Or maybe at the bottom of a long hill it would hesitate, like it was starved of fuel. But not enough to give that dreaded 559 code or whatever it is. Had the fuel pump head done right after I got it, so those crappy ceramic things are gone!

Well to end this short novel, I start thinking low fuel rail pressure, Cummins talks about leaking injectors in the troubleshooting steps. So why not, I order an injector. Don't really have the money to get all the stuff to do it all by the book, so I'll swap it in and out and see is one injector is bad. While I'm there I found a good price on new fuel ports so I'll replace all of them, just to feel like I'm following the book a little.

Anyone ever have the fun of working on an engine after someone less capable, or knowledgeable worked on it before? So I end up replacing 4 injectors because some moron had already over torqued the terminals on most of them, and before I even started getting them snug, they snap. So much for the full core charge!

Still not fixed. Still runs hot. Makes no sense, no signs of a head gasket problem. Coolant is already too hot before the oil thermostat opens, once that happens it's down hill from there.

I am going to try the radiator flush routine when I get home, but fact that one day it was fine, next day it was running hot, then the week it was fine, then hit ever since does not leave Mr with much confidence. I've also pressure washed the radiator back to front. I remember reading a post from Rawze saying in general there should be like a 20°- 40° temperature difference between the coolant and oil.

Top it all off, it just made it to the top of the steep grade on I-90 in Montana without a hard derate. But this is the first actual cool almost cold weather I've been in since it started. 45° outside at the top of the mountain, and at idle the coolant is almost 210, oil 220.

The last few months with down time, parts, related and unrelated repairs, I probably owe my carrier close to $30k, and I've gone from money in the bank to struggling to buy groceries to take with me in the truck. Partly my fialt for not wanting to pay the crap ton of money on labor and random parts early on, but at this point, it's either fix it and file bankruptcy, or fix it and refinance the truck to get back on my feet. I only financed for 3 years in the first place, it's paid off in less than 2. My plan was to trade in for a new truck, but even finding a new truck for sale right now it would cost more than a small fleet a couple of years ago.

Might be the longest post I've seen on here. But I'm hoping by telling the whole story something in it might give a hint or that small bit of info that points to a solution.

Any more info, temperature readings, just ask. I have my temperature gun, and a copy of insite that works when it wants to, usually can't really run tests well, or monitor anything more than a quick reading. I think it has some compatiblity issues with the Drewlinq interface I have. Worked fine with DDDS, but not great with insite.

Thanks for your time! And in advance for the help!

[Rawze]

* Did you replace that brass ring in the bottom of the thermostat housing when you changed the thermostat?.. did you install it facing the right direction, and did you make a tool to install the new one without buggering it up?


* Did anyone verify that the program in the engine has been updated and that it matches exactly for the ser# on quickserv. .. and not some "uprated" program for more HP?. - When there is any kind of issue, the program should be verified that it matches the engine exactly. -== and just because it is not de-mandated, does not mean someone did not screw with it ... HAVE THE SOFTWARE re-flashed to ensure no one monkeyed with it at some point.


* Will it actually pass an injector leak test?.. It sounds like you played "guess-and-hope" with the injectors without actually doing any proper leak-down tests. here is the test you should have performed. It should NOT leak any more than 4,000 psi in one minute...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...2#pid69262

* Has anyone bothered to replace the IMAP and exhaust back-pressure sensor on it.. AND TO VERIFY that the circuit for the exhaust BP sensor that runs thru the thermostat housing is not clogged up?. This will cause all kinds of h#ell for the engine and its combustion process.

* Has anyone bothered to look at the front/radiator with a thermal camera or verify that there is not cold spot(s) in the radiator?... for all anyone knows, some complete idiot could have poured a gallon of stop-leak in the coolant system at some point and clogged up half the front end, or some other part of the engine internally.

* When is the last time someone pulled the DPF out of it and inspected its face.. and the face of the DOC unit.. and the face of the SCR unit for soot buildup, etc... for all anyone knows one or more of them could be face plugged and trapping way too much heat into the engine.

* When the engine is turned over by hand.. it is really hard to turn? relative to other engines? .. I have seen alternators, fan clutches, and other external components cause the engine to hard-start (have trouble turning over when cranking them) and run hot all the time too.

* Does the truck roll well on its own?. .. any tires or brakes , or maybe a gearbox or tranny getting hot when you drive it a while then stop somewhere?.

* Is the radiator or CAC unit an AFTERMARKET BRAND ?.. OR oem>?.

* Does it have an after-market Brand of EGR cooler on it>?.. those things can literally kill an engine.

* HAS ANYONE BOTHERED TO do a proper CAC leakage test and also checked the entire intake air system + egr system for air leaks by pressurizing the whole engine up?. - significant air or egr leaks lead to the turbo over-working itself and causing trapped heat in the engine.

* Has anyone bothered to see if the overhead cam has slipped?. If it has then it can cause the engine to create all kinds of excessive internal friction and heat due to improper injection timing, etc.

* What does the regen history in Insite show>?. how often is it doing a rilling regen cycle and what are the resulting numbers on the far right?. -= Maybe post a pic of the regen history. + compare it to the engine hours to see if it is properly active.

* It should be noted, and you should also understand that the engine ECU itself is capable of overheating that engine and creating all kinds of excessive friction internally, so that it can warm up the DPF, SCR, etc. system, and this can cause the engine to run hot all the time,.. so do not rule it out as being unhappy about the exhaust system temps, etc.. but not showing codes for it.

* Anyone bothered to check the barro sensor in Insite and verify that it matches the current weather (millibars I think) and altitude for where you are?... A bad barro sensor can send the engine into high-altitude operating modes and make it run improperly, throwing no codes for it.

* What has been the fuel mileage been so far?... And if you drive it gently for a few days and keep the speeds down to 63~ish and not scream it down the roads.. keep boost to 20 lbs or less.. what is the fuel mileage then?.

* WHAT is the live mg/stroke being consumed for the engine while it is sitting there at idle?. Excessive friction in the engine will raise this number, so that is another thing to look at. You say that it sometimes dies when it drops down to an idle after running hard ... Could it be excessive friction somewhere causing it to stall out and die!. it would show up in the live mg/stroke readings if this were the case.

* Maybe someone should take it on a test drive and observe all the operating and emissions control logic.. check what the computer is actually doing to the engine?. Has to be done in Calterm...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid28636

- Anyone checked to see that the fan-clutch is not weak and slipping under load?... and that the circuit has full pressure on it?,... and that the solenoid is not plumed backward?.

- And by the way.. if that egr cooler was leaking then those exhaust cans are most likely toast!. the coolant washes out the precious metals.. and most of the time it also face-plugs them .. so that needs to be looked at.

===============

At the end of the day.. abnormally high heat buildup in an engine is typically caused by 3 things.

A)> excessive friction somewhere, of which the fuel mileage will be respectively low to also show all the extra work performed that should not be. Friction could be in the engine itself, in the drive train, or in the front end pulley system. - I.E.> the engine is being over-worked vs. the amount of expected output to the wheels.

or

B)> improper cooling due to restricted air thu the radiator system, restricted intake, restricted exhaust, restricted coolant, or restricted oil flow.

C)> Improper combustion process control due to bad sensors, slipped cam, or some other input that keeps the engine computer in the wrong operating state or mode. Bad delete programming is notorious for this, hence why the engine eats its own guts out slowly. In your particular case, you say it is NOT de-mandated.. but the symptoms you describe very closely resemble exactly this.

[Vengeance]

Thanks Rawze,

Just how much would that thermostat seal make a difference? I have not replaced it and I haven't seen any damage, I do however have a new seal at home, and I can make a piece of pipe to tap it in, i probably have a scoket that would work as well. And I'm not really sure how you would install the thermostat in the wrong direction and get the housing cover back on. But I'm sure there is someone out there that had managed to do it, probably more than once. Which is why we have stickers on $&@?# company trucks that say diesel in this hole and DEF in this hole.

The ECM software is up to date, and matches the serial number in quickserv, I verified that myself.

DPF, SCR, DOC are all in good shape, checked and cleaned early in this routine, and I noticed the egr cooler leak when less than a gallon of collant had been lost, I learned a long time ago the hard way about egr coolers and aftertreatment. I just got lucky this time and caught it very early. Dealer checked them when they did the egr cooler, said they looked good. I keep the oem computer set to show the hot exhaust symbol so I know when it is doing A passive regen, once a day or every other day. I can post the aftertreatment history of needed.

Truck rolls fine.

It's been a while since I bared this engine, and the only other engine I've done that on was a DD15. Seemed about the same to me. It starts easy, and I've driven a lot of different trucks, both newer and older, this truck is the easiest I've seen. A second or less on the starter and it going.

I know the fan pulls air toward the engine, I've read across that post on here many times. As far as the fan clutch goes, engine off/key on I can't turn it. It's blows and it's loud and obvious when it's on.

Radiator and CAC are oem, original if I'm not mistaken. EGR Cooler is new, and it better be oem, or MHC in Cheyenne is gonna have a problem. Looks OEM

Fuel economy hasn't changed noticibly, I feel like it actually increased some after the injectors. But I don't have enough time on it to know for sure.

I wouldn't know how to check for a slipped cam, I would assume that would cause all sorts of symptoms. Runs smooth, No changes in sound, vibration, power, etc. Heat is the only change.

I can check the IMAP and exhaust BP today, or at to see if the circuit (tube?) is clogged.

I don't know anyone with a thermal camera, so no, I've changed the coolant filters regularly, and the coolant has been drained several times, either intentionally or unintentionally, plus cutting open and inspecting the inside of the last filter, I haven't seen any evidence of contamination like stop leak. Doesn't mean there isn't anything inside the radiator, restricting flow or heat exchange. Plan to flush it when home.

It losing power or dying, it really has been rare. Might do it every time I stop for a week, then not a single problem for 2-3 months. I found the fuel port to injector 5 last year was lose, tightened it up, and it didn't have a problem for a long time after that.

Yes I'm ashamed to admit it I played guess and hope with the injectors. I dont really have the tools I need to do it, or the money to pay someone to do it. As for as the proper test......well......"Sorry: You do not have Permission to perform that action." The link doesn't work.

Let me know what I missed and I'll check those sensors, wouldn't suprise me if it was something like that. And I'll see about the regen logs

[Vengeance]

Yea, IMAP sensor, me and that little piece of plastic go way back, that's the damn thing that when it goes bad will throw codes for everything from the DPF differential pressure sensor to the egr sensor, every thing except the sensor that's actually bad.

I usually keep at least one spare with me. But right now it is on backorder with cummins, like 6-7 months. And that's the one sensor I haven't had any good luck with aftermarket.

[Vengeance]

As far as the stalling and dying, that may have finally given me a sign today, air in the fuel water seperator, nearly half air half fuel, so air is getting into the fuel lines, could be the seperator itself. Have to track it down.

[Vengeance]

I checked the exhaust BP tube, it seemed restricted, but not clogged I could still blow air thru it, still cleaned it out best I could. As far as that sensor goes if it can cause the truck to run to hot, and show no other symptoms, I'll find a way to get one somehow, it's a common part, but not a cheap as it used to be, it didn't look too bad, but looking at a sensor doesn't say much.

Except pulling the CAC and AC radiators off and cleaning the outside of them plus the coolant radiator and a flush I'm out of ideas. Besides that sensor and the thermostat seal.

Mainly I'm just tired of it all, I've never run into a problem I couldn't figure out, and it's frustrating as hell.

Here is the regen history.

[Vengeance]

Also barometric pressure is spot on, mg/stroke is 27-28, idle is 800 rpm

[Rawze]

(08-07-2022 )Vengeance Wrote:  Also barometric pressure is spot on, mg/stroke is 27-28, idle is 800 rpm

27/28 mg/stroke at idle is not excessive.

if ya just cannot figure it out.. maybe an appointment at Mr. Hags for some help with it in its future may be needed.

[Vengeance]

I'm out of time, and out of money. I've heard they are one of the best shops. But with a long waiting list. I'm just going to give in and take it to Motorpower in Great Falls, I'll post what the problem is if they can find it