Fixing a bad delete

[5jranch]

Howdy,

I have a truck that I think has a bad delete. Truck is a cm2350 that had 480,000 on it when purchased. Fully gutted exhaust, egr removed but coolant rerouted to back of the block. At 540,000 truck started idling rough, missing and hazing at idle. Found a crack headed on number 2. When ahead and Inframed it and put a new head on. Now at 590,000 it started building pressure in the coolant. Pulled the head today to find 7 cracks in the head. Some cylinders are cracked between intake valves. 1 cracked between exhaust valves and 1 cracked in all valves. No history over heating the motor and egts rarely see over 900. Truck is tuned be aggressive and will make 35-37 pounds of boost. Liner height was check at the inframe and again today and everything is at 5-6 thousandths. Head gasket looked great. How can I go about solving this moneypit. Thanks in advance

[Bengy88]

(12-20-2022 )5jranch Wrote:  Howdy,

I have a truck that I think has a bad delete. Truck is a cm2350 that had 480,000 on it when purchased. Fully gutted exhaust, egr removed but coolant rerouted to back of the block. At 540,000 truck started idling rough, missing and hazing at idle. Found a crack headed on number 2. When ahead and Inframed it and put a new head on. Now at 590,000 it started building pressure in the coolant. Pulled the head today to find 7 cracks in the head. Some cylinders are cracked between intake valves. 1 cracked between exhaust valves and 1 cracked in all valves. No history over heating the motor and egts rarely see over 900. Truck is tuned be aggressive and will make 35-37 pounds of boost. Liner height was check at the inframe and again today and everything is at 5-6 thousandths. Head gasket looked great. How can I go about solving this moneypit. Thanks in advance

As rawze always tells people here... Always assume your delete is bad.... 90 percent of them are. They usually show high boost, high oil temps, bad egt's, and result in cracked pistons, cracked heads, trucks eating turbos, injectors. The list goes on. hell i fixed a cm2250 a few weeks ago that had every one of these symptoms.

[Waterloo]

Working on one just about like it right now, hopefully we caught it in time.

[Rawze]

(12-20-2022 )5jranch Wrote:  Howdy,

I have a truck that I think has a bad delete. Truck is a cm2350 that had 480,000 on it when purchased. Fully gutted exhaust, egr removed but coolant rerouted to back of the block. At 540,000 truck started idling rough, missing and hazing at idle. Found a crack headed on number 2. When ahead and Inframed it and put a new head on. Now at 590,000 it started building pressure in the coolant. Pulled the head today to find 7 cracks in the head. Some cylinders are cracked between intake valves. 1 cracked between exhaust valves and 1 cracked in all valves. No history over heating the motor and egts rarely see over 900. Truck is tuned be aggressive and will make 35-37 pounds of boost. Liner height was check at the inframe and again today and everything is at 5-6 thousandths. Head gasket looked great. How can I go about solving this moneypit. Thanks in advance

Your post screams about a dozen red flags there. Looks like you have some serious research and learning ahead of you there about how these engine should be cared for and should operate.

* Inframed.. What was the liner height set to?.. Was a brand new OEM only head used and not a reman?.. all OEM parts? .. Anythign done to actually extend its life?. Throwing an inframe kit at it and/or a head DOES NOT EXTEND THE ENGINE LIFE BY MUCH AT ALL on its own!> and a whole host of questionable things go on with these inframes because people doing them do not do anything at all much beyond what the warranty/procedures/manual call for. This is an issue for an older engine that is beyond its warranty period and is actually worn in.


Half the places you take one to will not even counter-bore one most of the time.. and the other half that do.. will set the liners back to roughly 0.010" or so (factory height), and this does not extend the engine's overall lifespan by one damn bit!. All they accomplished was to make less blo-by with all those expensive parts, and the engine will fail again long before it reaches that next million miles.

Very few repair shops actually know how to do take the extra steps and do the extra things to the ISX's to properly build them up to last another million miles any more. There is some serious lack of proper training on their inframes, and it becomes a crap-shoot for most truck owners if they get an engine that stays together afterwords.

Here is what needed to happen, every bit of it, no less, and no shortcuts...
ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid70606

==========
NEXT: more than 90%+ of all de-mandates are extremely harmful to the engine and bad. .. really really bad!. This is even before anyone adds any power/torque to the engine at all. Your post shows clearly that you have a bad delete for sure. That CM2350 CANNOT HANDLE MORE THAN ABOUT 33 LBS OF BOOST, EVEN AT WELL ABOVE 600+ HORSEPOWER! once that egr gas has been taken away, .. so yes, your description points directly towards having a bad delete that is over-boosting and torturing the turbo and engine for sure.

NEXT: The EGT's being too low should be a SERIOUS RED FLAG TO YOU!. Those EGT's should be in the range of about 1050F - 1150F (post turbo) under maximum engine load. The engine is going to make the heat when making the power. The laws of thermodynamics are not going to be broken, it is not made of special fairy dust. WHEN the EGT's are too low for the power being produced.. THE HEAT GETS ABSORBED INTO THE ENGINE AND OIL SYSTEM!!!, eventually ending up in the radiator via the coolant, ... AND THIS IS VERY VERY BAD!.

Your post implies very heavily that you have a bad delete where the injection timing is seriously jacked up way too high + the turbo over-boosting the holy h#ell out of it!... Which will make a high chance to crack the head, possibly crack pistons, eat valve seats up, usually accompanied with higher than normal oil temps, and all the other nasty things that happen to them as a result of some complete moron who made that obviously, half-baked, garbage program not meant for a lawn-mower, nonetheless a $40,000 commercial engine.

NEXT: Now some clueless fool then adds power to it.. like you mentioned.. and you have a serious recipe for nothing but a disaster of expensive turbo and engine failures for the truck owner, over and over, and over. Those CM2350's are not the clunky old engines of yester-year!. They are specific to their power range and if someone wants it to last long enough to make a damned profit with the truck long term... THEN THE POWER NEEDS TO GO BACK DOWN TO SOMETHING REASONABLE FOR ITS BUILD TIER!!... and any hint or thoughts of belt-buckle bragging rights thrown out the godd-damn window!.

IF Some idiot of a truck owner wants to go play the big HP power, big belt-buckle fool (anything above factory spec) .. THEN THEY NEED TO BUY AN OLD AS HE#$LLL ENGINE FROM THE 1970'S THAT IS CHEAP TO REBUILD AND BE HAPPY WITH S$IT FUEL MILEAGE.. BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT THE ISX IS DESIGNED FOR!. That or invest in a race car to go do those things with .. IT WOULD BE FAR CHEAPER!.


Welcome to the bad delete club: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...5#pid13255


Copy the program out of your ecm and Email it to me. i will review it properly so that you know exactly what someone has done in there, good, bad, and most likely in your case .. downright ugly!.

[5jranch]

Spend some time reading what needs to be done. The head was a reworked Cummins, going to be replaced with a new one now, protrusion measures .005-.007 and counterbores were not cut last time. My question is can I reuse the liners since they only have 40,000 miles on the. Planning on pulling the liners and counter boring to get 0.014 protrusion.

[Rawze]

(12-20-2022 )5jranch Wrote:  Spend some time reading what needs to be done. The head was a reworked Cummins, going to be replaced with a new one now, protrusion measures .005-.007 and counterbores were not cut last time. My question is can I reuse the liners since they only have 40,000 miles on the. Planning on pulling the liners and counter boring to get 0.014 protrusion.

You cannot re-use those (40,000 miles) liners if that head gasket blew out, or if they have started to show signs of discoloration due to any excess heat. They will also need new brass shims (the ones that come with them) regardless.

By the way, typically, I set the liner height to 0.015".. and a maximum of 0.016" can be used for a power build, as long as the shimms are the cummins hardened brass ones. - Using Stainless shimms would be 0.001" (0.014 - 0.015") lower due to no give in them when the liner gets crushed.

[5jranch]

(12-20-2022 )Rawze Wrote:  

(12-20-2022 )5jranch Wrote:  Spend some time reading what needs to be done. The head was a reworked Cummins, going to be replaced with a new one now, protrusion measures .005-.007 and counterbores were not cut last time. My question is can I reuse the liners since they only have 40,000 miles on the. Planning on pulling the liners and counter boring to get 0.014 protrusion.

You cannot re-use those (40,000 miles) liners if that head gasket blew out, or if they have started to show signs of discoloration due to any excess heat. They will also need new brass shims (the ones that come with them) regardless.

By the way, typically, I set the liner height to 0.015".. and a maximum of 0.016" can be used for a power build, as long as the shimms are the cummins hardened brass ones. - Using Stainless shimms would be 0.001" (0.014 - 0.015") lower due to no give in them when the liner gets crushed.

I appreciate the clarification on the protrusion. Will be going to 0.015 with brass shims, and new liners just in case. We weren’t able to find when the head gasket failed, but better just do it your way and be done with it. Really looking forward to your take on the tune. It was quite the runner, just not for long. Hoping to find help to set it back to a safe level where it will last!

[Rawze]

(12-20-2022 )5jranch Wrote:  ...

Really looking forward to your take on the tune. It was quite the runner, just not for long. Hoping to find help to set it back to a safe level where it will last!

ehh?... I do not see any file that anyone has sent me yet from your truck for reveiw.

Copy it out of the ecm and e-mail it to me so that we can all see what someone did, - good, bad, ugly,.. and all the rest, so that other people can make better decisions about their truck in the future as they read thru this thread.

[tree98]

(12-20-2022 )5jranch Wrote:  Really looking forward to your take on the tune. It was quite the runner.

Oh yea, they'll run like a raped ape with totally wacked timing!! But like you said...... not for long.