| Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes |
| 05-02-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #1 | |||
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| Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes Hi All, Well I have found myself almost at a dead end trying to diagnose a power loss. So I have a Signature 520 CM570 in a Freightliner Argosy. So i have looked at the basics, connected Cummins Insite and have no active codes and one inactive one which was for low voltage some months ago when i had flat batteries. I have performed a log with Insite whilst driving under load and if the standard information i have is correct, can't find anything wrong. At 1500rpm, a screenshot showed the following... Road speed was 63km/h (39mp/h), Boost pressure was 250kpa(36-psi), fuel pressure 283kpa(41-psi), oil pressure was about 300kpa(43 psi), coolant temp, 91c (196f) oil temp was basically the same... Its set at 575hp and feels like 100hp... I have performed a top set about 30,000km ago, in the last week i have checked the timing actuators and these look like new (pretty sure these have been changed by previous owner at some stage, I still need to check the metering actuators this weekend. I need to perform an injector leak back test at the same time as i am pretty certain at least one injector is bad. I have had it shut down without warning once on me about 9 months ago with no indication, stared up straight away and was fine... No codes then either. No problem since. I thought the ecm could be bad, have swapped for a good one and basically runs the same. Engine will rev to governed speed (2000) but just won't pull. Under load it feels rugged / rough but sounds ok. I have cleaned the map / temp sensor and didn't really seem to make any difference. Did order a new one but they sent the wrong part so waiting for another to be sent. At the end of the day, the engine is not far from new but would like to get it sorted before i commit to a in chassis rebuild in the future. Sometime it feels more rugged under load than other days but this could also be me over thinking it all...BTW it idles reasonable most days occasionally rough. Sometimes has that cummins intermitant pop pop pop that actuators can cause at idle but of late has been ok. Anyone got any hints? :) Thanks! | |||
| 05-02-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #2 | |||
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| RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes Presuming you're in Australia or NZ if you're running a Signature 520 CM570 (or as you probably know it a Gen II Signature) and using metric measurements. Have you ever replaced the injectors in it? If not, wouldn't hurt to check the part numbers. If its a CPL 8246 (All the Australian delivered Gen II Signatures are) the part number on the injectors should be 4062568. Those injectors also superseed backwards to a different number when you compare them in QuickServe's CPL Comparison Tool for Gen I engines too. I've also had an injector shop replace the nozzles on a set of 4062568's that came out of a truck with 1,000,000L fuel burn and put the wrong nozzles on (presumably nozzles to suit the 450-500HP injectors). The truck that motor was fitted in would not pull, we pulled a set of injectors out of a motor that was involved in a big accident (snapped the retaining bolt off and punched the injector cam backwards in the head) put them in and it pulled like we expected it to. We sent the reconditioned injectors back to the shop that did them, they re-did them again, came back got put in the truck and it went off happily down the road without incident after that. Have you checked for boost leaks from turbo to intake? Cylinder cut out test? Any noticeable differences per cylinder? Does the electric fuel pump work? I.e. kick in when key is switched on waiting to start? I'm not 100% sure but I'm relatively confident that under load the ECM can switch it on to help the engine maintain fuel pressure. The typical cold start rough idle of a Signature isn't anything I'd be overly concerned about, I've only ever seen one Signature start up without it. | |||
| 05-02-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #3 | |||
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RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes (05-02-2024 )4x4Acco Wrote: ... Either you have made some mistakes and posted some incorrect numbers, or something is seriously whacked!. Fuel pressure at only 41 PSI???. =- This does not make any sense at all. The engine will not even try to fire the cylinders if the fuel pressure was actually that low. oil pressure at 43 PSI?. -- What was it with engine fully warmed up?, and with the coolant temp above 185F? ... and did anyone modify the oil pump?. AND what was the actual oil temps?... because they will NOT be the same as the coolant temp, unless something again.. is whacked!. =================== DOES IT HAVE the exact program in it according to the engne's ser#?... and IF NOT, THEN that is the FIRST THING that needs to be done to it before chasing ghosts, to ensure the program matches both the internal hardware of the engine .. AND THE EXTERNAL hardware for the vehicle. AND: HAS ANYONE BOTHERED TO monitor the ecm via Calt#erm -- AND CHECK all of the important settings to see what is going on???. .. especially paying attention to what is in control of the fueling state when it 'feels sluggish' ???. ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...3#pid58693 ALSO: Has anyone bothered to put it on a dyno?? ... to see what the actual power was instead of AN OPINION???., because if it was 'weak' then that boost level that you claim it is getting to does not sound quite right. You say it was recently rebuilt .. Was it all 100% genuine OEM parts?.. or some after-garbage crap?!. - Also, brand new genuine OEM HEAD?... or after-garbage crap?. -- because you get what you pay for with these engines ... and anything after-garbage ALWAYS = PROBLEMS!!!. User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
| 05-02-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #4 | |||
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| RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes Hi all, Thank you so much for you both responding to me, it is greatly appreciated. Ok so i have really got some units messed up and as such, it really looks bad. Sorry about that, had been a really long day. To clarify, es its a GEN 2 in Australia. I have owned it for about 2 years. It used to go like a scalded cat keeping up with current K200 Kw's no worries at all. It has been about the last 5 months it has been getting bad. About 6 months ago, the engine developed a serious knocking sound like a big end or worse. Turned out the flywheel was not secured correctly when the new clutch was fitted by the previous owner (and people wonder why i have trust issues...) I fixed this with new parts etc and have had no issues with that since. The engine has NOT been rebuilt to the best of my knowledge. I have not had the injectors out but unsure of previous owner. The ECU program is what was in it when i purchased the truck, It ran great when i bought it. I have tried another good ECU and this made no real difference, still really low in power. I have NOT had it on a dyno and am trying to use only genuine facts to describe it. Eg, With a common load of precast concrete panels which i transport regular along the same road, as an example, i used to be able to pull up the hill in top gear (18) at 100km/h, now with same load im back to about 70km/h and about 12th gear, thats how different it is. It did have a manifold leak between the cast elbow and the head, gasket has been replaced. No other leaks evident. I did have an over boosting problem for a short time where it would derate for a short moment untill the pressure reduced, this was fixed by cleaning the waist gate air controller unit. Now works fine. I have again loaded up an image from this fault and will post the findings exactly as it shows... Any data duplicated is the "first" and "last" time the fault occurred as shown in insite... CM570 Total ECM Time (Key On Time) 29923:17:18 HH:MM:SS Total Engine Hours (Engine Run Time) 29743:32:15 HH:MM:SS Keyoffs 9873 0595 Inactive 47 Amber Derates engine. 103 0 Total ECM Time (Key On Time) 29473:55:47 29919:37:19 HH:MM:SS Battery Voltage 13.6 13.6 V Coolant Level High High Coolant Temperature 87.1 84.4 °C Engine Brake Selector Status 6 6 Engine Oil Pressure 209.6 206.2 kPa Engine Oil Temperature 93.7 96.1 °C Engine Speed 1514 1484 RPM Fuel Inlet Restriction Pressure 12.0 12.0 psi Fuel Pressure 285.3 283.1 psi Idle Increment Switch None None Idle Validation Switch Off Idle Off Idle Intake Manifold Pressure 260.4 260.1 kPa Intake Manifold Temperature 59.3 50.4 °C Key Switch On On Manual Fan Clutch Switch On On Percent Throttle 10.0 10.0 Percent Percent Torque 65.16 66.68 Percent Service Brake Switch Released Released Total Engine Hours (Engine Run Time) 29297:02:35 29740:09:21 HH:MM:SS Vehicle Speed 71 95 km/hr This information was from when i had the over boost problem AND i had the spare ecm in the truck. I am thinking i need to do another run with the existing ecm (now fitted again) and get new data. One thing that to me didnt look correct is the throttle percentage was only 10%??? Assuming this should show 100% if the peddle is on the floor, only thought is if this snapshot was taken just as i had backed off due to traffic?? I will get new current data asap. Thanks so much for your time! | |||
| 05-04-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #5 | |||
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RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes (05-02-2024 )4x4Acco Wrote: Hi all, Rawze will probably be more of an expert than me on this one. Personally I'd be leaning towards installing a manual gauge onto the compucheck fitting on the gear driven fuel pump (you will need a gauge that goes into the 100's of PSI if memory serves correctly). If it was going fine before hand and has slowly gotten worse, it sounds like a fuelling issue. I've seen plenty of blocked fuel lines cause similar issues in CAT's, Cummins and even Volvo Engines. If you were to find low pressure at the gear pump, theoretically you need to follow the fuel from its source, start with the tank pick up(s) and follow it all the way to the screen in the IFSM if necessary checking for issues. If you found no issues there, don't be surprised if your gear pump has gone bad. If you have sufficient pressure at the gear pump, I'd be looking into your injectors, unfortunately they're not a cheap item. Approx $2200AUD + GST exchange each through Cummins last time I priced some. https://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?...&pid=74309 The above link has a video explaining how the fuel system on ISX CM570 functions. Does it perform ok bob tail when there is no real drivetrain load? Unfortunately truck Dyno's aren't as easily accessible in Australia for testing, most of the major engine manufacturers larger shops have one and anyone else with one knows how to charge worse than a stealership would. | |||
| 05-04-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #6 | |||
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| RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes another thing to check is to do injector leak tests... info: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...8#pid67948 User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
| 05-04-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #7 | |||
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| RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes I have a gauge and will check the fuel pressure again. From memory it was ok before but i will check it again anyway to make sure. It has had a new pump put on it at some stage before i bought the truck. I was of the understanding if the fuel pressure fell below the working range, it would report a fault code??? IT has new fuel filter on it, i have tried selecting one tank at a time and made no difference. The only part of the intake lines that could be damaged internally would be from the selector taps to the prime pump. Prime pump works as normal and also looks to be reasonably new...( i guess not that means anything). I have the test plate to do the injector leak test which i planned to do this weekend when i cleaned and inspected the fulling actuators but if now raining cats and dogs so that wont be happening... I will do that asap too...I have watched your / rawze's video on the test and have the supporting bulletin so wont be an issue to do when it stops raining... Goes ok bob tailing but even then if your in a higher gear at say 1200 and floor it, still dosnt feel like it jumps away like it did...I checked the screen in the IFSM to find it not even there... Im guessing it has been removed (why would you???) when the additional primary filter was installed. I plan to replace this regardless when i get a second. I guess in summary i was under the impression that id get a low fuel pressure code if there was an issue as this seems to be a common thing with the ISX but this was probably a bad opinion on my behalf and certainly agree that all my issues could be low fuel pressure. I do have another pump i could try if it came to it. | |||
| 05-04-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #8 | |||
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| RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes If you are going to check fuel pressure manually, do not use the test port at the gear pump. That port is to measure inlet restriction and will damage a pressure gauge. The pressure port is at the base of the IFSM near the front. If you have a vacuum gauge it would be good to check the inlet restriction. I believe the max is 12inhg but I’d have to look it up to be sure. I also recommend test driving while someone watches a few parameters on Data Monitor. Pay close attention to ‘user fueling state’ (called engine operating state on some engines). A few times I’ve caught CM570s derating with no faults and ended up seeing this state change to FSS Derate. Replacing the crank position sensor solved the problem. Might as well change the cam sensor at the same time. | |||
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| 05-05-2024, (Subject: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes ) Post: #9 | |||
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| RE: Signature 520 CM570 Low power no codes Thanks! I do have a vacuum gauge i can use for inlet restriction. I will check it at the same time. When it shut down that one time with no apparent reason, the crank angle sensor was my main suspect with it not seeming to play up since, i didnt follow i up. If a crank angle sensor has an intermittent fault, could ti supply incorrect data but the engine keep running as each cam position pulse resets the crank angle count? This was a thought for it running rough too.. | |||
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