Propane injection

[Rawze]

(10-13-2016 )Kevin7898 Wrote:  Propane to a diesel is like nitrous to a gas engine. Except better. As stated it hepls burn the fuel more completely, but it also significantly lowers your egt. So thus allowing you to dump more fuel and air in and get a safe burn. Works even better with ecm controlled motors when they are tuned and have the internals to match.

I prefer to base what I learn on science and not a bunch of market hype. What you state there makes me think of all that XM radio market bullshit from some company that has brainwashed everyone in their path.

Here is some info that is more along the science of it all ...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...6815000162

I.E. in their study, it shows clearly that Propane and/or LPG alters final crank angles dramatically, just like I suspected, and requires the engine to have much different operating requirements. Therefore for any modern diesel engine that has to maintain precise control of the combustion process to be efficient, it is paramount that the ECM have special programming to compensate this at the very least. The problem is that there is very little research on getting that part correct, so I seriously doubt that any company that is selling those kits is even getting it close,.. nonetheless right.

Even in the document I referenced, they state that its only real advantage on a duel fuel application in the mid power band of the engine, but even these dumb-asses did not account for the lack of injection pressure differences in the injection cycle, and/or the change in spray-pattern of the diesel assist. -- Again,... too little research and lack of understanding overall. The more pre-combustion and cylinder pressures you have on the uptake because you have a volatile mix,.. the less difference in injection pressure when the diesel goes in,.. and guess what -- at some point high in the engine load requirement, you will start to get cylinder washing and excess cylinder pressures. This would REQUIRE that the compression ratio and FAM of the engine be altered as well,.. and those are some serious hardware changes such as different pistons and/or crank, etc. to really dial it in close enough for it to become a competitive advantage.

I see a shortened engine life as compared to a well tuned engine, and as well, a fuel with LESS energy always requires larger quantities to make up the difference.

I still see no long term advantage, but only a big gaping hole of crap that companies can use to brainwash people out of their money, then go onto forums and brag about how good it is with no merit behind anything they said.

ALSO... there was a big project for the CM870's with this setup and special injectors .. it is called the "Westport" system and hence the multiple injection cycle settings found in the old CM870 programming. - At the end of the day, the gains were nowhere near what they claimed should have been, the operating costs were higher, and the emissions were not where they needed to be. this is even after using special programming in the ecm and direct injection of the propane.

Those claims by those companies of adding 50+ hp and 10+hp to "boost power" and gain fuel economy = a huge jump in internal engine friction and absorbed heat into the cylinders (causing egt's to fall off).. leading to a massive acceleration in engine wear, shortened engine life and high risks of liner fretting.

I.E.> its all marketed bull@#sit!

[Kevin7898]

For the average motor yes. But with the supporting mods done inside the motor as well as the ecm it's a viable option. Would there be a significant return on investment? Not for your average otr truck but in specialty applications where big power is required there are benefits. To be honest a water/meth injection would get you farther without adding volatile propane to a truck.

[Rawze]

(10-13-2016 )Kevin7898 Wrote:  For the average motor yes. But with the supporting mods done inside the motor as well as the ecm it's a viable option. Would there be a significant return on investment? Not for your average otr truck but in specialty applications where big power is required there are benefits. To be honest a water/meth injection would get you farther without adding volatile propane to a truck.

Not to be insulting .. but I see this only as brainwashing at its best -- Please take that kind of thinking to other forums where water/meth and brainwashed fantasies of big power by adding propane instead of doing it the right way are done over in the land of TTR Oz~.

That style of thinking is no better than making a ton of black smoke to choke your cylinders so they don't melt -- It is completely unnecessary and there are much better methods.

I will only ever disagree with this kind of outdated simplistic style of thinking, and anyone who thinks that a self-propelled water/methanol injection system on a good running well tuned engine has some kind of advantage has to be completely wacko!.

Apologies if I come off as a troll here, but I have been around all these corners before. I don't have quick-connects on my intake manifold because they look pretty. I have been down these roads in the past.

[Hammerhead]

(10-13-2016 )Kevin7898 Wrote:  For the average motor yes. But with the supporting mods done inside the motor as well as the ecm it's a viable option. Would there be a significant return on investment? Not for your average otr truck but in specialty applications where big power is required there are benefits. To be honest a water/meth injection would get you farther without adding volatile propane to a truck.

Just for clarification sake, I think we can all agree that this could be considered a "Big Power" requirement...#€€# it, let's call a spade a spade, this is the biggest power requirement on the road, and this forum is about exactly that, reliable OTR truck.

If propane, water/meth, whatever you like was that much of a real benefit, these guys would know about it, and use it. Some of these guys are actual O/O's. Just think of the revenue they could command if they could eliminate a truck or two. Yes that many, they hook up more pullers and pushers when they get to House River, Supertest, and other hills. I've seen 9 trucks on countless loads for the big hills. They run multiple extra trucks a couple hundred miles to do the big pulls/pushes.
Don't kid yourself, they do know about it. And they don't use it. One of these guys (I know of, & there's probably more than him) actually builds his own trucks. Yes multiple, he's built more than one!
THAT is a Power Requirement, if you're talking about having a power requirement so you can just sit on c/c and roll up and down the road all day at 75mph, go ahead and install your precious propane system. When you're in the shop getting overhauled due to premature engine failure, we'll all be out here delivering loads and earning our precious revenue with our reliable trucks...

Water injection does work. Go to the Museum of Flight in Seattle. It tells you all about it. The WWII planes with Merlin engines had a water injection system on them. It was a "bug out" system. When all else fails, and the pilot was in certain disaster, ICE break glass type, it added enough air speed to (hopefully) save his azz...but it was a toaster, if/when the plane got back the motor HAD to be overhauled due to the damage it sustained from using it. Other chemical injection is old technology, if it was effective, efficient, and reliable the OEM's would offer it. They are in fact competing against one another for market share, and if they had something that gave them an edge, we'll they're not stupid, they'd use it.

[preacherboy24]

(10-13-2016 )Rawze Wrote:  

(10-13-2016 )Kevin7898 Wrote:  For the average motor yes. But with the supporting mods done inside the motor as well as the ecm it's a viable option. Would there be a significant return on investment? Not for your average otr truck but in specialty applications where big power is required there are benefits. To be honest a water/meth injection would get you farther without adding volatile propane to a truck.

Not to be insulting .. but I see this only as brainwashing at its best -- Please take that kind of thinking to other forums where water/meth and brainwashed fantasies of big power by adding propane instead of doing it the right way are done over in the land of TTR Oz~.

That style of thinking is no better than making a ton of black smoke to choke your cylinders so they don't melt -- It is completely unnecessary and there are much better methods.

I will only ever disagree with this kind of outdated simplistic style of thinking, and anyone who thinks that a self-propelled water/methanol injection system on a good running well tuned engine has some kind of advantage has to be completely wacko!.

Apologies if I come off as a troll here, but I have been around all these corners before. I don't have quick-connects on my intake manifold because they look pretty. I have been down these roads in the past.

Funny thing....KR tried it on one of his trucks. Guess what? It didnt work out. Even KR doesnt promote Propane Injection.

[preacherboy24]

I will say there is probably better science out there with CNG. There are kits that can get you up to 50% substitution but I'm sure crank angles need to be looked at (I agree with Rawze). There is better infrastructure for CNG and it is 130 octane so it agrees with our compression ratios better than Propane which is closer to 110. CNG is a lot cheaper right now than Propane.

The thing I see here is what would be the gain? You add weight to the truck when you install the tank....one that has an expiration date by the way. It takes some serious math to see if you get gains in overall fuel costs.....and you dont really know what its doing to your engine. I saw a CNG/Diesel truck on ebay with a rebuilt ISX at 450k on the odometer.....I gotta wonder if CNG had anything to do with that early rebuild.

Proper maintenance and tuning can yield an incredibly clean running engine as well as one that has some real longevity.