| cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) |
| 01-30-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #1 | |||
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| cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) Greetings all, I'm a longtime lurker that finally joined and want to share part of my ongoing story with this red engine. The truck is an 07 KW t600, an 06 cm870 with 13-speed Eaton and 3:36 rears on lo-pro 22's. I bought the truck with a "fresh" inframe, new software from 475 to 550 (from Cummins), 100k warranty and oh boy it's time to go trucking! Reality showed up at 108,000 miles later and she had as much blow-by as exhaust (least I thought so)....you guessed it..."sorry you're out of warranty"! I had a great local shop I used and the diagnosis was grim....she needed to be gone through again. The tech doing the job was a friend and although the money and downtime was steep....I felt good about having it done "right". Teardown ensued....I got a call..."you need to come see this" so over to the shop and lo and behold there were pistons and rods lined up for me to see. Bearings on the bottom were hardly broken in...then not one....but two pistons with the rings lined up as straight as an arrow....two more had maybe 60 degrees of offset and the last two were "correct". Umm yeah Houston we have a problem. No taking chances this time....head was sent off and parts ordered....I go back home. Now the weird part....a few days go by and no news on the head, shop owner calls 'em and big surprise....they can't "find" my head. "Not to worry" says machine shop...."we have another one here and will send it right out". I should have known it wouldn't end well. I got the truck back and holy sweetness she was a star! Great power, smooooth running and idling.....yep.... the world is mine for the taking! Or was it? We had changed everything but the crank, air compressor, fuel pumps, fuel actuators, turbo (same actuator too).....and injectors. Yes you can say "ah-HA!" if you like now. I made it about seven months and she wasn't running well. My shop was swamped and I went to Cummins....yeah big red "C" in the sky. All tests said 2 injectors were bad...."ya know, we recommend doing all six so you get the warranty"....they saw me coming and I said yes. I made it eleven months this time. Same symptoms as before...oh but wait....heh heh...I got a warranty! Now I like being a little devious so back to the great red "C" and have em check her out. "Hey you got 3 bad injectors but well we recommend you get all six done." I said wow that sounds expensive but okay if that's what it takes....I got caught though and all they would "warranty" was the three that showed up bad. Oh well, I tried and down the road again...but I felt something wasn't right. I started looking up things online, reading countless message boards and discovered Rawze and a few others that were passionate about not only learning....but sharing that knowledge. Back to my saga....about seven months after the "warranty" work....my fuel tanks wouldn't stay level. My engine builder had left my local shop and was doing a mobile business on his own but I'm loyal so I had them try to find the issue. New superman tech says its a line and the return splitter...simple right? Didn't fix it. Idling at base or raised idle it was fine....load the engine and make it work....as much as a half a tank difference! A few of you already know how this turns out I bet. I played the game of "let's try this and see" for too long. By now I had software and an interface, the advantage of tapping into what people had written on this forum and others....let's not forget the Tube....omg Thank You Rawze! I got my builder to come by the house....testing....THINKING....lots of air in return fuel. We open her up on top. Number one injector is...."stuck". Finally, out it pops and the bottom end is covered in a dry scaly rusty looking substance. Yep. Found where the compression is getting in the return lines! The other five looked brand new and nothing out of the ordinary. The bore for number one had pits right above the cup...and the cup itself has major issues. I'm not sure how that engine made adjustments for that mess but I'm real glad we did what we did. A head from a REPUTABLE shop is forthcoming later this week and I'm gonna be right in the middle of a REPAIR instead of just changing parts and hoping for the best. Thanks to all of you for tolerating this long post and giving me faith to take control. Updates to follow. User's Signature: I don't understand everything I know and the world is probably better off for it. | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #2 | |||
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RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) (01-30-2017 )Redpower870 Wrote: Greetings all, I'm a longtime lurker that finally joined and want to share part of my ongoing story with this red engine. The truck is an 07 KW t600, an 06 cm870 with 13-speed Eaton and 3:36 rears on lo-pro 22's. I bought the truck with a "fresh" inframe, new software from 475 to 550 (from Cummins), 100k warranty and oh boy it's time to go trucking! Reality showed up at 108,000 miles later and she had as much blow-by as exhaust (least I thought so)....you guessed it..."sorry you're out of warranty"! Keep us posted, thanks User's Signature: It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #3 | |||
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RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) (01-30-2017 )Redpower870 Wrote: ... This could be a mistake. If your engine was built for 475-HP, and you put a 550 program in it, it is more likely than not that you are running a program for wrong size injectors. If this is the case, it throws everything in the engine off a bit. Is not so good for the head, liners, efficiency, or anything else for that matter. Put a program back in it that matches the engine based on its serial number, CPL, and static timing offset. After that, if you want it turned up that high, then I would suggest you contact Unilevers and/or Gearhead for a custom program designed for the size injectors and other components you have so that it is done correctly. (01-30-2017 )Redpower870 Wrote: .... You are still barking up the wrong tree and not likely to solve your issues long term it sounds like. My experience through helping many others over the past several years has pointed to the ISX HEAD not being worth putting back onto an engine after 435,000 miles or so of use. 4 out of 5 will either not pass a thorough magnaflux test, or have just enough issues that you don't want to re-use it. A shop that re-works them by removing even more metal is bad for them all around in my own opinion as well. - I say screw trying to get a re-worked head from someone to save a few dollars. It is more reliable in the end to just buy a brand new one (not even a certified re-man) for about $3600 - $3800 or so from cummins. One that does NOT have an RX stamped into it as part of the part#. Otherwise you are in the same boat yet again in another 200 - 400k miles. Just my own FOS thoughts on it -- Rawze User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #4 | |||
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| RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) Ditto on the reman head, you don't know what you are getting. Even the shop that handled my in frame did not want to install a reman head, to many issues with them. Bite the big one and go with a new one if you can. And set the horse power back to 475 and make sure you have the proper CPL in there. If you have not gotten an Inline 5 reader from eBay, go get one, they are around $400. That way you know that you are set up properly. A PM to Gearhead would be in order too. He really knows these 870 motors and the programing on them. He has a real shop up in MD off of I-95 by the PA border. I would look him up. | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #5 | |||
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| RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) I am amazed at the quick replies....and thankful for them. The 550 program is supposed to agree with my CPL and serial (79219011) but I certainly agree the engine was made for 475 and I should get that back in it. Waterloo...I have the laptop loaded and capability to....ahem..."do what must be done" LOL. I rarely go to the Communist areas of the lower 48 (no offense to the northeast), I'm in middle Tenn so a trip to GA would be much more to my liking. Thank you guys again for giving a crap and helping.....I'm going shopping for a new head now. User's Signature: I don't understand everything I know and the world is probably better off for it. | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #6 | |||
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| RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ....but two pistons with the rings lined up as straight as an arrow.... Here we go again with piston rings "incorrectly" or should we say "ignorantly" installed. SAD | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #7 | |||
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RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) (01-31-2017 )Starlight Wrote: ....but two pistons with the rings lined up as straight as an arrow.... Here we go again with piston rings "incorrectly" or should we say "ignorantly" installed. SAD WoW!. User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!. | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #8 | |||
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RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) (01-31-2017 )Starlight Wrote: ....but two pistons with the rings lined up as straight as an arrow.... Here we go again with piston rings "incorrectly" or should we say "ignorantly" installed. SAD Between this and MrHagg's report of the varying and unsqaure liners, I am utterly disgusted with the BRM! With their manufacturing facilities and capabilities, this should be considered unacceptable by the QC Dept! There is absolutely (and zero offense intended) no ####ing way that a shade tree guy like Rawze has to be called in to re-cut the block to set liners. Im not saying he shouldn't be that good at it, I'm saying the BRM should not be that inferior at it! User's Signature: Why? Why do I always ask "why?" Because I can't learn or help teach others with "'cause I said so..." | |||
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| 01-31-2017, (Subject: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) ) Post: #9 | |||
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| RE: cm870 needs a head (so I can get ahead) Let me give a little more history on that "supposed" inframe when I bought the truck. It was a shop in Kansas that I would be more than willing to share the name in private (yep I read the terms on here lol). They rushed the job, and I was stupid at the time....my builder here reminded me just a few hours ago how that block had the WRONG liners, set FLAT...yeah FLAT in the block and how disgusted he was that I was done that way. A real miracle that I was able to get 108k out of it and excessive blowby being the only visible problem before he tore it down. The head wasn't reworked that we could tell (probably a good thing in hindsight) and same injectors. I know now how lucky I am that Neal (that's my builder) actually gave a crap about doing the job right, setting the new and correct liners where they should be. He is a lot like you Rawze...can't stop checking the torque on something even after the third time of running through without feeling like maybe he missed something. He voiced a bad feeling about this last head....I didn't listen...my expensive mistake and I admit it. I took the advice you guys gave so far and will pull the trigger on a new head rather than a reman. User's Signature: I don't understand everything I know and the world is probably better off for it. | |||
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