New head, low oil psi, 50% jake

[JasonD5746]

Nate is the mech who did that. But,
I really appreciate all the input I got from everyone on the forum.

[Rawze]

(07-16-2019 )JasonD5746 Wrote:  Found the problem. Thanks a lot..... Nate.....

that could be a serious issue. thanks for sharing. For those starring at the picture wondering what is wrong...

[Mr Hagg]

Yep this is the reason if any upper end work is done in our shop I will run them with valve cover off first to make sure there's no oil leaks. Things happen but glad you got it fixed. How did you like when you started it up and oil sprayed every where...

[JasonD5746]

Well, honestly I felt vindicated..
they had been telling me for a week that I was paranoid about my oil pressure and that Nate was a good mechanic.. Wouldn't mess up my engine.. So yea, when a half gallon of oil hit the ground in about 10 seconds..
I'm a little concerned that the rockers may have starved for oil.. And the rear half of the cam.. I'm holding nearly 20psi at 650rpm with oil at 210°, but I'm not accustomed to seeing it below 25psi with a fresh 15w40 (and gallon of 80w140) oil change. I'm still getting coolant out of my water seperator, which I expected although they assured me they drained tanks..
They were not my first choice, but I didnt think it would make it to GA. I was a few days before my planned a year advance vacation, went to leave house and it wouldn't start.. White smoke like crazy, but no start. Pulled filters, full of coolant. Drove it the 30mi to the company shop, and water separator was full of red coolant again. So that's how this all got started.
Ain't trucking great..??

[Rawze]

(07-14-2019 )JasonD5746 Wrote:  Cm2250, 530,000mi, egr tune
Bought w250,000mi only time cover was off since I've had it was for overhead at 275ish
Just replaced head for leaking injector cups,
...

An ISX that is lugged to an agonizing death because it was driven below 1500RPM its whole life (which is pure engine abuse all on its own) and 1850+ or more torque programmed into it ... at 500,000+ miles, it is nearing its B50 rating of about 650k miles. -- You say it was injector cups,.. but it is doubtful. The CM2250, CM2350, X15's already have a history of the liners being too low from the factory vs. the compression ratio of the engine. ... and yours burning coolant now,.. <-- you should have inframed it properly and raised the liner height to 0.015".


I see a repeat of history and another head in your very near future (in your own case, like 30,000 - 60,000 miles near future). <- seen this a hundred times.

This is especially true if that shop tells you things like "liner height is in cummins spec" instead of specifically having it counter-bored and raising liners higher the second time around to ABOVE 0.014" (0.015 or 0.016 recommended). The problem is that even if they are counter-bored it and set back at its "new engine" spec of 0.010" or 0.011" ... THE ENGINE LIFE HAS NOT BEEN EXTENDED AT ALL!!... and all the works done to it only becomes a giant band-aide that has a 60% chance of failing again in a few years or sooner.

So for yours, odds are against you that you will follow the same pattern that I see over and over with these newer ISX's,...


* Engine starts burning coolant at 500,000 miles+.

* Shop replaces head gasket and says you need head gasket only, because they check liner height with head off it and can't find a dropped liner. --- OR --- Replaces head, claiming it was injector cup, maybe cracked head.etc.

* $10,000 later, the thing is back together, everyone happy (so they think ...).

* 6 months later (or less), engine burning coolant again. Truck owner blaming bad workmanship by shop.

* takes it back to shop, shop say its not their fault, its bad head gasket, or bad head, and round and round they go...

* Maybe they put overhaul kit in it,.. maybe they counter-bore maybe not,.. ,Maybe they just blame it on bad head gasket or bad head,.... down this rabbit hole they go ...

* Another new head gasket later,.. (maybe even now an overhaul kit too + counter-bore and set back at 0.010" ...) another bunch of labor and $$$, it goes back together. Now you have wasted all the down time and that $10,000 bucks it cost you the first time... wasted a lot of big $$$$$ and lots of down time loosing out of freight,.. behind in truck payments too now, and borrowed money by this time to get it fixed ...

* A few months later,.. it blows again. <--- everyone blames each other,.. shop blames shotty parts and garbage head gaskets,.. truck owner finally calls Rawze and asks why he has wasted $45,000 dollars at this point and engine won;t stay together...


* Rawze has this to say...



-- At the 500,000 miles (when it failed the first time),.. what should have happened was THE VERY FIRST TIME IT WAS TAKEN APART ...

The engine needed ...
** an overhaul kit put in.
** all new rod/main bearings.
** oil pump.
** counter-bore and raise liner height to 0.015".
** New wrist pin bushings in the connecting rods (or new connecting rods).
** NEW HEAD .. not a reman and especially NOT A REPAIRED OR RE-WORKED HEAD!... B RAND NEW ONLY!.
** New crank shaft damper (it is due for replacement too at 500k miles even if engine is not overhauled).
....
, everything needed to extend its life + build it for another MILLION MILES and not the garbage spec it was built at the first time while it was apart. Also because everything was disturbed .. SO because this was not done, odds are against you for the liners not staying at height when it goes back together any more due to age and wear. ... Simply because the B50 rating on those CM2250's above 500+ HP seems about 650k miles any ways.. it would be a dumb move not to do this if the head EVER has to come off of one. Most shops do not do these things because most shops ARE SEVERELY UNDER-TRAINED on all this extra stuff, that info has gotten lost over the last several years, and NO ONE bothers to teach it nor compensate for the higher compression ratio that these newer engines run on!.

** Not pulling and replacing the pistons and liners was the first mistake. that model engine is notorious for fretting liner by the time they get 700+ k miles on them (all 100% factory w/emissions system intact, custom tuned, deleted, or not,.. does not matter, more seem to do it than not) unless your a lucky person. - Knowing this, it is really dumb to bank on being that "lucky person" and since you disturbed everything, the likeliness of it staying together is now close to zero, even IF all the liners check out great and are of the correct "in-spec" garbage height. <-- odds are stacked highly in favour of a repeat failure until the liner height has been raised to minimum of 0.015" the second time around.

** Next, in your case, is that it DID fail again because of what I just mentioned ... AND NOW THERE IS ANOTHER PROBLEM!!! --- But since the head was replaced,.. everyone at the shop seems to be under this bubble of complete ignorance that the head can be re-used because it is not very old,.. why not, its only 30,000 miles old!!! <<-- MISTAKE #2!!! -- THAT HEAD IS SHOT!!!! IT HAS ABOUT 0.001" - 0.002" FRETTING ON IT WHERE THE LINER WAS DANCING BECAUSE THAT HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM THE WHOLE TIME,.. AND NOW IT HAS ECTHED ITS WAY UP INTO THAT BRAND NEW HEAD, DESTROYING THE BOTTOM OF IT AND BLEW THE HEAD GASKET THAT SECOND TIME!!!


** SO like a bunch of morons now,.. overhaul kit or not,.. counter-bore or not,.. they build it up possibly the right way this second time around,.. BUT -- THEY RE-USE THAT BRAND NEW HEAD THAT IS NOW TOAST!!!!!...


-- And the repeating cycle of blame and ignorance sets in and all the wasted money and problems,.. over and over this goes, everyone blaming the engine parts, the crappy ISX,.. the shop blames the truck owner/driver of engine abuse, the driver blames the shop of under-torquing the head, --- everyone blames each other and guess what --- it will come apart again,.. and guess what ,.. "but that head is new,.. lets re-use it,.. it can;t be the head", .. and again they go,.. and again they waste another $10,000 bucks,.. because NO ONE STOPPED THE FIRST GODDAMN TIME TO DO THE F$KING JOB PROPERLY!!!!--- THIS IS NOT YOUR GRANDMA'S STATION WAGON AND 350 CHEVY ENGINE!!! -- THINGS HAVE TO BE DONE IN ONE WAY AND ONE WAY ONLY!!! -- PROPERLY!!!.

--< I see this scenario at least 5 or 6 times every single year on here, and it totally can be avoided,.. so if I were you JasonD5746, I would be worried,.. very very very worried after reading this, because you are following exactly that path that leads right down the road I just described!

Will you be that one lucky person that makes it another 100-200k miles on it like it is? -- seriously doubtful at this point, its not impossible that you "only had an injector cup failure", and it is not impossible that "disturbing the liners and everything else" it may have a miracle happen and everything settle exactly the same way it was as the old head,.. but you had best bet you would be the lottery winner on it if you did make it another 100-200k miles!@.


-- SAVE YOUR MONEY LIKE MAD!!-- I SEE A TRIP TO MR.HAGS IN YOUR VERY NEAR FUTURE + AND AN OVERHAUL + COUNTER-BORING TO 0.015" + ANOTHER NEW HEAD -- VERY SOON IN YOUR FUTURE OTHERWISE!!!

Here is how it SHOULD HAVE been built.. the first time!!.: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid70606

And here is a prime example of what a $40,000 top-tier, no expense spared OEM rebuild done at a prestigious fully trained, fully certified stealers$it gets you these days, and the failure that ensured only 80,000 miles later ...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...6#pid25356

[Techmech]

I have seen the same thing happen too. Last engine we did was even worst it had 150mm liners in 152mm bores. Mechs that did it were so ignorant . Nobody cared to check and or even feel that the liners drop in block with no force at all (we took them out with hand)not even talking about cutting the block. Hopefully Mr.Rawze didn't scare you but educated you like us all about repeating problems people do.

[Rawze]

(07-18-2019 )Techmech Wrote:  I have seen the same thing happen too. Last engine we did was even worst it had 150mm liners in 152mm bores. Mechs that did it were so ignorant . Nobody cared to check and or even feel that the liners drop in block with no force at all (we took them out with hand)not even talking about cutting the block. Hopefully Mr.Rawze didn't scare you but educated you like us all about repeating problems people do.

speaking of 150mm liners vs 152 liners,.. Mr. hag said something very interesting in this regard yesterday to me. he said that every single 150mm liner they have pulled out of an engine, the liner o-ring was pink in color, and that every 152mm liner they have ever pulled out of an engine, the o-ring was blue in color. -- they said they can spot what size liner the engine takes just by looking at the color of the o-rings, BUT-- they never take this for granted, they measure any ways.

[JasonD5746]

Ouch.. yes, imma need to go soon.. I'm holding 30psi at 1500rpm.. 15.5psi with clutch in at idle.. That's at top of a hill tho, oil hit 230°.. I'm guessing a spun bearing or several going on back there over the keeper.

[Magard]

(07-18-2019 )Rawze Wrote:  

(07-18-2019 )Techmech Wrote:  I have seen the same thing happen too. Last engine we did was even worst it had 150mm liners in 152mm bores. Mechs that did it were so ignorant . Nobody cared to check and or even feel that the liners drop in block with no force at all (we took them out with hand)not even talking about cutting the block. Hopefully Mr.Rawze didn't scare you but educated you like us all about repeating problems people do.

speaking of 150mm liners vs 152 liners,.. Mr. hag said something very interesting in this regard yesterday to me. he said that every single 150mm liner they have pulled out of an engine, the liner o-ring was pink in color, and that every 152mm liner they have ever pulled out of an engine, the o-ring was blue in color. -- they said they can spot what size liner the engine takes just by looking at the color of the o-rings, BUT-- they never take this for granted, they measure any ways.

another thing that is scary about 150-152 liners. I haven’t verified if this is proper or not but the liner shims in this aftermarket kit I just cut counterbores for with 150mm liners where the same as 152 mm liners from a previous 152 mm engine. I would like to get verification on this. If you place the two shims on top of each other the naked eye can’t see anything different. Are they actually different shims or are they the same. How about the top of liner measurements. Would 150mm seem right in a 152mm block. The only difference that stands out when doing the work other than o rings is the block is smaller in o ring area. Like your chip plugs won’t fit right. That’s the only dead giveaway if you have neglected measuring liners and just taking someone’s word for it and looking at o ring colors.