Oil drain to do a Head/ Head Gasket RR? + more

[Kid Rock]

Well I think I may be up against a gasket/head issue like @Waterloo and others have experienced recently. The truck now has approx 860,000 mi with very low idle time (only for warm ups and cool downs). I will know more I suppose after I test with the exhaust gas leak test that Napa sells. I'm not losing coolant, but little bubbles have been appearing more lately. I've been dealing with this for about a year now, but it would go away so I don't know. I take very good care of this truck, it is driven by me @ 10 BST or bellow 98% or so of the time & the oil is still golden at 15k. I need to do an oil change but I think it may be head time too... I don't want to waste ANY money if I'm actually at this point right now... So my questions to the community is:

1) does the oil need to be drained to do the head/gasket RR?
2) are the head gasket kits off eBay worth looking into? ($450 range)
3) (not a question) I already know from research here that the new Head is the way to go
4) how much should I expect to spend on the new Head itself/Gaskets/ + Labor. I plan to schedule time with Mr. Hag because i could hardly justify spending this type of money with someone on the outside who has no reputation for quality and pride in their work.

Maybe this thread could help a few others along the way and as always, thanks in advance and Safe Trails to you all :)

[Rawze]

(06-06-2016 )AndrewH Wrote:  Well I think I may be up against a gasket/head issue like @Waterloo and others have experienced recently. The truck now has approx 860,000 mi with very low idle time (only for warm ups and cool downs). I will know more I suppose after I test with the exhaust gas leak test that Napa sells. I'm not losing coolant, but little bubbles have been appearing more lately. I've been dealing with this for about a year now, but it would go away so I don't know. I take very good care of this truck, it is driven by me @ 10 BST or bellow 98% or so of the time & the oil is still golden at 15k. I need to do an oil change but I think it may be head time too... I don't want to waste ANY money if I'm actually at this point right now... So my questions to the community is:

1) does the oil need to be drained to do the head/gasket RR?
2) are the head gasket kits off eBay worth looking into? ($450 range)
3) (not a question) I already know from research here that the new Head is the way to go
4) how much should I expect to spend on the new Head itself/Gaskets/ + Labor. I plan to schedule time with Mr. Hag because i could hardly justify spending this type of money with someone on the outside who has no reputation for quality and pride in their work.

Maybe this thread could help a few others along the way and as always, thanks in advance and Safe Trails to you all :)

I am pretty sure that Mr. Hag will only use OEM parts. There is a reason for that. -- I wouldn't trust ANYTHING off e-bay for something I could not just pull off myself and throw away if it were bad or failed later. -- Just my own take on it. For couple hundred more, you can have an actual OEM part. throw that e-bay idea in the trash can! -- Fast!.

I would think head around $3700 (a bit less perhaps) and the upper gasket set (all gaskets for upper half of the engine come in a kit) for another $700~ish?

* Be prepared for the worst case scenario jut in case,.... You never know what you are going to find after removing the head.


As far as draining the oil --- ANY TIME you plan on taking the engine apart, or removing the head,.. Before you do anything to it, you need to pressurize the coolant system and let it sit for several hours with the oil pan off to ensure you do not have a liner leaking too. It is absolutely stupid not to do this test. -- I let mine sit overnight and it surprised me, found a micro-leak at cylinder #6. It turned out out be an injector cup, but could just have well have been a liner.

I also did an injector leak-down test on mine before tearing into everything as well. No sense in taking the head all apart and not changing injectors that may be leaky. It saves labor and down-time and is the right thing to do too.


So... I would suggest...

* Do an injector leak test and make plans on replacing any leaky injectors.

* Pull the oil pan off and pressurize the coolant system to a full 20-PSI and let it sit overnight. Check for any other leaks too (hoses, Turbo, EGR cooler, Doser Injector, etc.).

* At 800k+ miles,.. I would heavily suggest replacing the rod and main bearings at the very least while you are at it. Pan will be off already and they are not really very expensive.

[gearhead]

Like rawze said mybe other problems prepare for the worst hope for the best. I would say go oem cummins 700-800 but you get everything needed to do it. properly.

[in2trux]

Boy if that isn't the $64,000 question!

Out of those 860,000 how many where yours?

As long as you're not pushing coolant into the oil, your mpg is still decent, keep running it.
At 860k you are running out of options. You really need to be thinking about either a total inframe or a reman engine. Rawze made 950 BUT he has owned the truck since new. How many of the miles on your engine were subject to the mandate?

Bottom end,pistons,liners,bearings $ 5000
New head, $5000 by the time you factor in shipping.
Rods, $2000
Camss, $3000+
Turbo and actuator, $4000
Injectors, $3000+
Timing and metering actuators, $2000
All of that is without labor.



My opinion, these are not 1M mile engines with the mandate!
By the time you or me get ahold of them, the damage is done.
3406b, 1 million miles, change the oil and filters, set the overhead once a year.

I've railed about the changes I've seen in the last 38 years and if anything with all the " technology" gains have been factored out by inflation and loss of production and reliability!

Start asking yourself," what is the cost of ownership"?
What do you net in 1 year? After all the parts,downtime?
How long can you tread water?

Keep running until,
1. All of your bills are paid 2 months in advance!
Because by the time you, schedule the work, aquire the parts and get back on the road, you and your business will be in cardiac arrest! Who can go, 3,4,5 weeks without revenue and not burn all their cash?

2. You have the $20K + for parts and core charges.
If you go with a reman engine, you need $ 35k + a $25 k core charge. Try to work that out with even the lowest overhead!

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm in a real pissy mood because itt use to be just a matter of hard work. Now it is a total crap shoot!

[Kid Rock]

(06-06-2016 )in2trux Wrote:  Boy if that isn't the $64,000 question!

Out of those 860,000 how many where yours?

As long as you're not pushing coolant into the oil, your mpg is still decent, keep running it.
At 860k you are running out of options. You really need to be thinking about either a total inframe or a reman engine. Rawze made 950 BUT he has owned the truck since new. How many of the miles on your engine were subject to the mandate?

Bottom end,pistons,liners,bearings $ 5000
New head, $5000 by the time you factor in shipping.
Rods, $2000
Camss, $3000+
Turbo and actuator, $4000
Injectors, $3000+
Timing and metering actuators, $2000
All of that is without labor.



My opinion, these are not 1M mile engines with the mandate!
By the time you or me get ahold of them, the damage is done.
3406b, 1 million miles, change the oil and filters, set the overhead once a year.

I've railed about the changes I've seen in the last 38 years and if anything with all the " technology" gains have been factored out by inflation and loss of production and reliability!

Start asking yourself," what is the cost of ownership"?
What do you net in 1 year? After all the parts,downtime?
How long can you tread water?

Keep running until,
1. All of your bills are paid 2 months in advance!
Because by the time you, schedule the work, aquire the parts and get back on the road, you and your business will be in cardiac arrest! Who can go, 3,4,5 weeks without revenue and not burn all their cash?

2. You have the $20K + for parts and core charges.
If you go with a reman engine, you need $ 35k + a $25 k core charge. Try to work that out with even the lowest overhead!

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm in a real pissy mood because itt use to be just a matter of hard work. Now it is a total crap shoot!

I got the motor @ 550,000. I just had the cams out for new cam bearings with forum member Dr. ISX, everything up top looks great. I put a new exhaust cam in a year or so ago, the injection cam is great. Rockers are great. Injectors are not leaking. Main & rod bearings & oil pump were done in December. I overhauled the whole cooling system 2015 via RAD/CAC/thermostat/water pump/coolant temp sensor. By pass filter/clean oil since the cam bearing job. NO oil consumption... Great fuel mileage... I got 10 mpg riding empty today with a 48' spread flat... 7-8mpg loaded... I feel like I can get away with a new head/gasket and be good for a couple years... Now after buying my house my style of running is changing. Instead of 100k miles a year that will probably be cut in half or so...

I might just park this truck and run my N-14 for a while, a juggling move... I haven't been in the industry decades like you but I can say I'm in for over half a decade lol but I understand the frustration of today emission standards built into new motors... I never realized how different things were until I kept "peeling the onion" back and countered all the brainwash the industry consists of via the Newer Trucks are the answer to everything

[Kid Rock]

(06-06-2016 )Rawze Wrote:  

(06-06-2016 )AndrewH Wrote:  Well I think I may be up against a gasket/head issue like @Waterloo and others have experienced recently. The truck now has approx 860,000 mi with very low idle time (only for warm ups and cool downs). I will know more I suppose after I test with the exhaust gas leak test that Napa sells. I'm not losing coolant, but little bubbles have been appearing more lately. I've been dealing with this for about a year now, but it would go away so I don't know. I take very good care of this truck, it is driven by me @ 10 BST or bellow 98% or so of the time & the oil is still golden at 15k. I need to do an oil change but I think it may be head time too... I don't want to waste ANY money if I'm actually at this point right now... So my questions to the community is:

1) does the oil need to be drained to do the head/gasket RR?
2) are the head gasket kits off eBay worth looking into? ($450 range)
3) (not a question) I already know from research here that the new Head is the way to go
4) how much should I expect to spend on the new Head itself/Gaskets/ + Labor. I plan to schedule time with Mr. Hag because i could hardly justify spending this type of money with someone on the outside who has no reputation for quality and pride in their work.

Maybe this thread could help a few others along the way and as always, thanks in advance and Safe Trails to you all :)

I am pretty sure that Mr. Hag will only use OEM parts. There is a reason for that. -- I wouldn't trust ANYTHING off e-bay for something I could not just pull off myself and throw away if it were bad or failed later. -- Just my own take on it. For couple hundred more, you can have an actual OEM part. throw that e-bay idea in the trash can! -- Fast!.

I would think head around $3700 (a bit less perhaps) and the upper gasket set (all gaskets for upper half of the engine come in a kit) for another $700~ish?

* Be prepared for the worst case scenario jut in case,.... You never know what you are going to find after removing the head.


As far as draining the oil --- ANY TIME you plan on taking the engine apart, or removing the head,.. Before you do anything to it, you need to pressurize the coolant system and let it sit for several hours with the oil pan off to ensure you do not have a liner leaking too. It is absolutely stupid not to do this test. -- I let mine sit overnight and it surprised me, found a micro-leak at cylinder #6. It turned out out be an injector cup, but could just have well have been a liner.

I also did an injector leak-down test on mine before tearing into everything as well. No sense in taking the head all apart and not changing injectors that may be leaky. It saves labor and down-time and is the right thing to do too.


So... I would suggest...

* Do an injector leak test and make plans on replacing any leaky injectors.

* Pull the oil pan off and pressurize the coolant system to a full 20-PSI and let it sit overnight. Check for any other leaks too (hoses, Turbo, EGR cooler, Doser Injector, etc.).

* At 800k+ miles,.. I would heavily suggest replacing the rod and main bearings at the very least while you are at it. Pan will be off already and they are not really very expensive.

Thanks Rawze and Unilevers for chiming in, I do appreciate it

[dbl overdrive]

Sorry to hear that.
I just did the inframe on my truck due to a spun cam bushing. The way I new it was time was the oil samples showed a spike in copper and aluminum . The head was 4200.00 for a NEW one. I followed Rawzes advice and stayed away from the 600.00 cheaper reman.
My engine made it to 959,000 and looked good inside other than the injector cam.
So my advice is do oil samples and follow what others are saying as well. But be prepared for worst case if you remove the head. Good luck friend. It's stressful but you will get through it.