Cm871 hammering, poor thing
10-07-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #1
Cm871 hammering, poor thing
Amazing how much I’ve learned reading through the old posts on Rawze, I’m a newbie.

Early in the year, I acquired a 2008 389 Pete day cab in a equipment business deal for next to nothing. First I will say it was ROUGH and the oil field companies “mechanic” and his work was comical after going over this poor thing. My first actual thoughts were buying it for parts and the hood (I have several 389’s on the farm). After lots of cleaning and fluid changing I put farm tags and insurance on it and ran it local for a few months to see if it was worth spending any cash on, and we were all very surprised of how nice it drove and really gave no trouble. Remember I gave almost nothing for this thing, it kind of came with some other stuff. But it was on the road before the company closed.

So... it’s a 1 million mile 2008 Pete 389 VIN 1xp-xd49x-8-8d755233, factory day cab, 13speed, nice and low geared rears on air trac, wet kit....basically rigged out for a perfect off road farm truck just like my other 389. Even the same color. I can’t explain how dirty this truck was...wish I had pics. Inside and out. Mixed tires, butchered wiring, EVERY SINGLE shock/bushing/rubber anything was complete gone! We replaced door seals, shocks, hood and cab bushings before really running it and made a huge difference. Power washed and degreased inside and outside and got it decent to haul corn out of the field. They had obviously just completely rebuilt the AC system, compressor, lines, dash controls, all of it. Also Had new king pins and tie rod ends (drove surprisingly nice) but that’s about it!

After 4K miles and harvest with me and one of my guys both running it we are thinking of trying to “save it” instead of parting it. My main issue of why I have came here is the ole isx under the hood, I know we can all imagine that poor thing. The main issue is the hammer/rattle under load at 1500.... but after a few hours of research on Rawze that’s just one tiny thing on the list that this engine needs.

The engine has obviously been replaced it’s a Cummins ReCon engine from Cummins in Mexico. I have no clue what HP, or what the original CPL was in the truck factory. What I do know is it is a CPL2732 with a reman date 3/11/13 and serial number of 8LB001098 which I have read could just be a long block? Also this thing hasn’t used a drop of oil, doesn’t have a single slightest oil leak anywhere, it is spotless under neath and everywhere, doesn’t appear to have blowby and pulls pretty darn good (about like my 485hp paccars). HOT oil temp (215) at idle is 18-20 and close to 40 at 1600-1750 on highway.

It sounds great UNTIL you get into that 1500-1550 rpm under load, it starts a hammering, vibration that is noticeable. When running and pulling with it we just simply keep it from doing it by shifting up or down etc. This vibration/noise can slightly be heard stationary with engine revved to 1550 noise sounds up high but hard to tell. This truck also has a horrible idle until it’s warm. It starts perfect but is very eradic and slight shakes until water temp get alittle up. After that it idles perfect and consistent. Under hard pull it never makes over 25 to 30 psi of boost and the jake brakes are STOUT. I mean like slow you down quick stout, it will make 32 psi of boost with Jake on.

MY THEORY is that this engine was put in not to long ago by this company’s idiot mechanics that might have used the wrong ecm or file from some other truck OR maybe the original truck’s ECM that is for a higher hp CPL. I have NO clue. I do know that the DPF and regen does function with clean stacks, the EGR appears to work, along with the VGT. Everything LOOKS stock from outside. It has several codes on the dash which of course I can’t tell any of you because I don’t have insite yet.

My main questions and guidance I need is what to do now, I’m so intrigued by this page and this truck and I am determined to make it reliable and sort it out.

MY PLAN. In order as follows

1. Harmonic balancer (also might fix horrible belt squeal that belt and tensioner didn’t fix) CUMMINS OEM? Or good off brand?
2. Rods/main bearings (what brand and where to purchase?)
3. Overhead and check cam/rockers
4. Injector blowby test?
5. Obtain insite/teamviewer and whatever you guys tell me to buy so I can see inside ECM. MM file maybe? Still confused by the lingo and how to do) I want to demandate it and set at normal everyday HP 450-485. Hopefully this will fix the hammering??

If we still can’t find it.
6. Possibly injectors
7. Head removal/replace. My mechanic and I can do all the work especially with Rawze YouTube.



Last but least I took unit by the local “DEEZULL DALEET” tuner guy that said for $3500 he’ll delete it and tune it to 600hp which is never what I asked him to do, that was his response when I asked to plug in with insite and see if we might could figure out what the hammering was from. What a joke. I left it with him for him to look in the ECM and see if he could see anything he thought was astray. WHAT A JOKE. Called me a week later and said that my truck had a QSX off-road case Steiger engine and ecm and would be $5k for him to “build” the software for this truck. I laughed in his face and picked it up. This is the only guy in a 100 mile radius that I know of that can plug into trucks that isn’t a dealer (that’s why I took it). Luckily he didn’t change or charge me much of anything but it is unreal what shops will do when they think customers are oblivious and just open the check book for them. He had a isx tore apart in his shop with cracked head with his “tune” and delete installed it also had a NON vgt super duper turbo on it if that tells you anything.

Sorry for the long post....

So first and foremost thank you guys and second, where can I get INsite and what and where do I get cables to go from my laptop to the truck? Do I need teamviewr to send the file to somebody? Anything else I need to be able to pay one of these guys on here to look over my ECM and demandate it? Trucks are mainly off-road lots of idling and stop and go back roads.

Also keep in mind this truck isn’t my lifeline or everyday money maker, it won’t ever be more than 200 miles from home and might see 20k miles a year. It will sit in a barn for 2 weeks at a time like my other ones. Just want it decent to put a part time driver in a few months every year. I think it will be a super nice respectable truck in the end, even if I end up overhauling it.
THANKS
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10-07-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #2
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
I sent you an email, two emails, same thing I have been running in my 871 for a few years without issue. It is the latest incarnation for the 871, and is easy to install, I did mine in the driveway. And to note, I am a truck driver, not a mechanic, I know enough to be dangerous. Keep that in mind...

First thing, get a free account on Cummins Quickserve. That way you have access to everything the dealership does in regards to manuals, parts, the part numbers and repair and trouble shooting procedures. I in framed my motor in Rawze's driveway using Quickserve on my iPhone along with Rawze's video series on the 871 in frame. https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html

The inline reader, one of these, pretty much what everyone uses here, comes with Insite, all the cables, etc., that you will need to connect. You will have to find (CT) [email protected] erm, it is on the internet for free.

Here is the reader you need... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Diagnostic-Data...7268ccf60f

And yes, China, they usually get these readers here quicker than the US Mail will get a letter across town.

Pop the valve cover, inspect the cams and the lobes.

Run the overhead, there is a video on how to do that on the top of the page under "Video"

Complete an EGR Tuneup, there is a video for that too. Only use Cummins OEM parts! The two main sensors on the 871 are the iMap (Intake Manifold Pressure Sensor) and the Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor. These should be replaced yearly, even on a deleted motor. Your Differential Pressure Sensor, the one with the funny tubes. Inspect the tubes and make sure they are clear. If you are going to delete, I would not mess with this sensor other than to clean it for now. If it is in bad shape, best to replace to rule everything out. Only use Cummins OEM parts, especially these sensors.

If you are going to keep the mandate intact, I would inspect the fuel doser, and drop the DOC and DPF cans to inspect, if keeping them on, if they are dirty, take them in to be baked and de-ashed and reinstall. The fuel doser, if it is gummed up, best to get a new one, and there is a core deposit on the doser. You will need to drain off a bit of coolant to remove that particular doser. You will need Insite up and running if you do bake the cans and reinstall, the ECM will need to be told this work has been completed.

if the belts are slipping and jumping around, that sounds like the damper, only use a Cummins OEM Damper! Sounds like yours is shot. The new one needs to be painted before installing. I use the Cummins brand red engine paint, expensive, but holds up much better than anything you will find at Home Depot. A little bit goes a long way, love that paint.

If you suspect something in the lower end, I would inspect... But, if your oil pressure is actually running up near 40 psi, it sounds like someone may have already been in there, or the motor has fewer miles on her than you think. I would do the overhead first and replace the crankshaft damper before dropping the pan.

Injector blow by test, there is a video for that too, and I would do that. It may also be time for new fuel timing and metering actuators, but do everything else first before replacing these particular parts as the are not inexpensive. Run the injector test first, along with completing the overhead.

To me, it sounds like the damper is shot and she needs an overhead in a bad way. If the truck is using coolant, then I would suspect the head or EGR cooler. If you do drop the pan, pressurize the motor/cooling system to 20psi and let her sit overnight. The following day, get under her with a good flashlight and one of you bar the motor over, if there is a slipped liner, which is what you are looking for, you will hear bubbling and normally find drops of coolant on one of the cylinder walls, normally #5.

As far as the head, if it is slap wore out, only use a NEW OEM Cummins head. Not a reman or aftermarket, a NEW OEM Cummins head, same goes for the in frame kit if you go that route. And you will need to remove a liner and measure it before ordering any kits from Cummins, the same for the rod bearings. Measure first before ordering, it is all explained on Cummins Quickserve under the engine rebuild section along with the parts section.

Right now, to my uneducated simple mind, it sounds like an EGR tuneup is in order, along with a new damper and overhead, that would be my first real concerns along with the inspection of the valves, cams and lobes.

As far as the file on the ECM, I sent you most of what you will need to set up an Inline reader and how to extract a file along with the latest M and M for that motor. Once extracted, put it on a thumb drive, ALWAYS make a copy! Send a copy of that file to Rawze, he will inspect it for you, and he does not charge. He can tell you exactly what you have.

Others will chime in, sounds like you may have a pretty sound rig with a little work. The 871 is a good motor once you change her diapers a few times. And stay away from the clown in town that does that hack programming, but you know that already...

And please, do not contact me in regards to the computer stuff, I use a Mac, I have no clue how any of this stuff works, I had help from other forum members here to get everything set up, which hopefully the email I sent you will solve the issues with setup. Once it is all set up, it is pretty easy to use, and that is where I am in all of this, my computer is set up and I can use it.


User's Signature: 2008 ProStar, OEM 600hp CM-871, 18spd, 3:42, in framed in Rawze's driveway. Every day is a fresh new episode of, "The Twilight Zone"... Rod Serling lives rent free in my head. I can smell the Chesterfields.
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 Thanks given by: SquareOne
10-07-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #3
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
like waterloo said.. get yourself an inline adapter and get a laptop set up for working on that engine... it will be the best investment you ever made with it .. and keep it away from the idiot tuners who want $thousands to tune on that thng... the proper and safe tuning files necessary for the 871 are on the internet for free... he is trying to take you for all your worth!. Even if you wanted to pay someone to do it right, it should not have been more than a few hundred bucks at best for the ecm work... but even so, unless you know exactly what someone has done ... line for line in the programming, then your dooming that engine into an agonizing death.

* Replace sensors and do an engine tune-up on it.
* adjust the overhead valves and inspect the cams.
* Do the injector tests and other tests and stuff mentioned mentioned above.

* get Insite and an adapter.... copy the program out of the ecm and e-mail it to me. Walik-thru instructions are easily found on how to copy program out of ecm once you get the adapter and software up and going.. most truck owners can figure out how to do this themselves, it is not that hard. Once you have a copy of the program that is in the ecm and e-mail it to me, I will tell you exactly what you have and where to go from there as far as programming goes. Don't rule out mechanical issues, but with engine vibrations like your describing, it very well could be a programming issue. You need to at least do this as a minimum towards solving your problems.

- Who knows if that idiot changed anything without you knowing about it. - After e-mailing it to me, I can also tell you what program it has and needs after looking at what is in there. You should also post a couple few pictures of the engine cover sticker that shows the details and CPL of that reman engine.

Also.. will it do a parked regen if someone connects to it with an adapter and insite and tells it to do one?.

-- Owning a modern engine these days requires having the software to talk to it. otherwise your at the mercy of the over-priced and rip-offs out there that will take you for all your worth every time there is a hiccup.


User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!.
replyreply
 Thanks given by: SquareOne , Waterloo
10-07-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #4
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
Horrible knocking sound only at 1500rpm is nearly always the damper. Have a feel around the back of it on the intake side. That rear face should be flat - If it's bulging then the silicon/gel inside has gone hard.

Once you get Insite, get someone to check your ECM code is right for your engine aswell.
replyreply
 Thanks given by: Rawze , SquareOne , Waterloo , marek4792
10-07-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #5
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
(10-07-2020 )Signature620 Wrote:  Horrible knocking sound only at 1500rpm is nearly always the damper. Have a feel around the back of it on the intake side. That rear face should be flat - If it's bulging then the silicon/gel inside has gone hard.

Once you get Insite, get someone to check your ECM code is right for your engine aswell.
Definitely is the damper, my 870 was making the same noise at the same rpm range before the damper catastrophically came apart..
EDIT:
I posted pictures of mine in this thread awhile back.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...per#pid445
replyreply
 Thanks given by: Signature620
10-08-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #6
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
Thank you everyone so much. I will obtain cable and insite and report back. Ordered a dampener today!
replyreply
 Thanks given by: Signature620
10-09-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #7
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
(10-07-2020 )Waterloo Wrote:  I sent you an email, two emails, same thing I have been running in my 871 for a few years without issue. It is the latest incarnation for the 871, and is easy to install, I did mine in the driveway. And to note, I am a truck driver, not a mechanic, I know enough to be dangerous. Keep that in mind...

First thing, get a free account on Cummins Quickserve. That way you have access to everything the dealership does in regards to manuals, parts, the part numbers and repair and trouble shooting procedures. I in framed my motor in Rawze's driveway using Quickserve on my iPhone along with Rawze's video series on the 871 in frame. https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html

The inline reader, one of these, pretty much what everyone uses here, comes with Insite, all the cables, etc., that you will need to connect. You will have to find (CT) [email protected] erm, it is on the internet for free.

Here is the reader you need... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Diagnostic-Data...7268ccf60f

And yes, China, they usually get these readers here quicker than the US Mail will get a letter across town.

Pop the valve cover, inspect the cams and the lobes.

Run the overhead, there is a video on how to do that on the top of the page under "Video"

Complete an EGR Tuneup, there is a video for that too. Only use Cummins OEM parts! The two main sensors on the 871 are the iMap (Intake Manifold Pressure Sensor) and the Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor. These should be replaced yearly, even on a deleted motor. Your Differential Pressure Sensor, the one with the funny tubes. Inspect the tubes and make sure they are clear. If you are going to delete, I would not mess with this sensor other than to clean it for now. If it is in bad shape, best to replace to rule everything out. Only use Cummins OEM parts, especially these sensors.

If you are going to keep the mandate intact, I would inspect the fuel doser, and drop the DOC and DPF cans to inspect, if keeping them on, if they are dirty, take them in to be baked and de-ashed and reinstall. The fuel doser, if it is gummed up, best to get a new one, and there is a core deposit on the doser. You will need to drain off a bit of coolant to remove that particular doser. You will need Insite up and running if you do bake the cans and reinstall, the ECM will need to be told this work has been completed.

if the belts are slipping and jumping around, that sounds like the damper, only use a Cummins OEM Damper! Sounds like yours is shot. The new one needs to be painted before installing. I use the Cummins brand red engine paint, expensive, but holds up much better than anything you will find at Home Depot. A little bit goes a long way, love that paint.

If you suspect something in the lower end, I would inspect... But, if your oil pressure is actually running up near 40 psi, it sounds like someone may have already been in there, or the motor has fewer miles on her than you think. I would do the overhead first and replace the crankshaft damper before dropping the pan.

Injector blow by test, there is a video for that too, and I would do that. It may also be time for new fuel timing and metering actuators, but do everything else first before replacing these particular parts as the are not inexpensive. Run the injector test first, along with completing the overhead.

To me, it sounds like the damper is shot and she needs an overhead in a bad way. If the truck is using coolant, then I would suspect the head or EGR cooler. If you do drop the pan, pressurize the motor/cooling system to 20psi and let her sit overnight. The following day, get under her with a good flashlight and one of you bar the motor over, if there is a slipped liner, which is what you are looking for, you will hear bubbling and normally find drops of coolant on one of the cylinder walls, normally #5.

As far as the head, if it is slap wore out, only use a NEW OEM Cummins head. Not a reman or aftermarket, a NEW OEM Cummins head, same goes for the in frame kit if you go that route. And you will need to remove a liner and measure it before ordering any kits from Cummins, the same for the rod bearings. Measure first before ordering, it is all explained on Cummins Quickserve under the engine rebuild section along with the parts section.

Right now, to my uneducated simple mind, it sounds like an EGR tuneup is in order, along with a new damper and overhead, that would be my first real concerns along with the inspection of the valves, cams and lobes.

As far as the file on the ECM, I sent you most of what you will need to set up an Inline reader and how to extract a file along with the latest M and M for that motor. Once extracted, put it on a thumb drive, ALWAYS make a copy! Send a copy of that file to Rawze, he will inspect it for you, and he does not charge. He can tell you exactly what you have.

Others will chime in, sounds like you may have a pretty sound rig with a little work. The 871 is a good motor once you change her diapers a few times. And stay away from the clown in town that does that hack programming, but you know that already...

And please, do not contact me in regards to the computer stuff, I use a Mac, I have no clue how any of this stuff works, I had help from other forum members here to get everything set up, which hopefully the email I sent you will solve the issues with setup. Once it is all set up, it is pretty easy to use, and that is where I am in all of this, my computer is set up and I can use it.



Waterloo I never received your emails? Maybe I’m doing something wrong. I am still learning this site! Thank you!
replyreply
10-10-2020, (Subject: Cm871 hammering, poor thing ) 
Post: #8
RE: Cm871 hammering, poor thing
(10-09-2020 )txfarmer Wrote:  Waterloo I never received your emails? Maybe I’m doing something wrong. I am still learning this site! Thank you!

I sent you a Private Message PM with my email address, send me yours and I will get that stuff to you.


User's Signature: 2008 ProStar, OEM 600hp CM-871, 18spd, 3:42, in framed in Rawze's driveway. Every day is a fresh new episode of, "The Twilight Zone"... Rod Serling lives rent free in my head. I can smell the Chesterfields.
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