Bad De-Mandate?
04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #1
Bad De-Mandate?
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Hey guys. New member but a long time reader and lurker of the forums. My name is Michael and I am an O/O from Texas. I have a 2014 International 9900i that i bought back in December. The truck came from Canada too. Here are the specs:

ISX-15 CM2350 (Originally 550HP)
RTLO-18918B 18 speed
4.10 gears
13,220 Front Axle
46,000 Rear Axles
BD Exhaust Manifold
Borg Warner Turbo #171710 (S478)
Odometer Mileage: 504399
ECM Mileage appears to be just over 40,000 miles.

Quick edit: The truck sits on 11R/24.5 rubber and my cruise RPM at 65mph is 1500rpm. For this last 30 day average I ran the truck at 65mph at 1500rpm loaded and empty. I prefer to drive 57mph under normal time constraints and 62mph if I am in a hurry.
The truck had been De-Mandated before I made the purchase and I knew it was so it was not a surprise. I am a career mechanic from Chrysler that switched to trucking after 23 years of turning wrenches. I know the tune is way off in the ECM and my tuning experience with Cummins motors larger than the 5.9/6.7 is lacking.

This thing is a dog. As of right now my fuel economy 30 day average is 4.35mpg with a best of 5.12mph and a worst of 3.94mpg. I pull a 3-axle step deck and right now I weigh 68,000lbs and attempting to pull a 6% grade I see a maximum of 25psi of boost on the stock gauge and 26psi on my mechanical gauge. I also have very little black smoke if any. While pulling anything larger than a 3% grade I am having to drop down to 15th and sometimes 14th gear to maintain speed up the grade even at 68,000lbs. At 80,000-90,000lbs. I will be in 12th or 13th to maintain my speed uphill.

Is there any tuning guru's who would be willing to take a look at the current tune and provide some insight as to how bad it really is and what needs to be corrected?

Thanks for your time and glad to finally become a member of the forum.
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04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #2
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
The ecm file will be trash if it's got a Borg Warner turbo on it. You should really change it to some sort of Holset turbo, whether it be a wastegated HX55/60, stock VGT or a slightly larger VGT.

The poor fuel economy probably isn't totally caused by the crappy tune. Try pressurising the intake to check for boost leaks. Check the aftertreatment system has been hollowed out correctly, check for dirt and bugs plugging the CAC, check that the EGR piping has been blocked off correctly, check that the exhaust gas pressure sensor is reading correctly and replace the intake pressure sensor if it has carbon all over it.
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 Thanks given by: fast69mopar
04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #3
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
(04-01-2022 )Signature620 Wrote:  The ecm file will be trash if it's got a Borg Warner turbo on it. You should really change it to some sort of Holset turbo, whether it be a wastegated HX55/60, stock VGT or a slightly larger VGT.

The poor fuel economy probably isn't totally caused by the crappy tune. Try pressurising the intake to check for boost leaks. Check the aftertreatment system has been hollowed out correctly, check for dirt and bugs plugging the CAC, check that the EGR piping has been blocked off correctly, check that the exhaust gas pressure sensor is reading correctly and replace the intake pressure sensor if it has carbon all over it.

I have performed a smoke test on the system as well as removing the CAC to perform a pressure test. The TMAP Sensor was completely full of soot so I just replaced it. All of the EGR system on the engine has been removed and the one-box is still in the stock location but it has been bypassed with straight pipe back to the y-pipe for the stacks.

The turbo and exhaust manifold is straight from BD's website. I'm doing some research to see which turbos will work with the T6 flange on my manifold too.
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04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #4
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
Buy an OEM manifold and the correct VG for it, don't mess around with that junk, it will never be quite right. It will be almost impossible to get good programming for a fixed vane.


User's Signature: Warranty??? Yeah right, I am the warranty!!!
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 Thanks given by: fast69mopar , Waterloo
04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #5
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
(04-01-2022 )tree98 Wrote:  Buy an OEM manifold and the correct VG for it, don't mess around with that junk, it will never be quite right. It will be almost impossible to get good programming for a fixed vane.

That was my thinking as well but I wanted to do my due diligence to see if there were any other options.
replyreply
04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #6
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
The mods that someone has done to that truck are complete trash. Those aftermarket manifolds and turbos are horrible for the ISX engine. That VG turbo it came with was the very thing that sets the proper fuel-air-mix for that engine and also used for generating proper back pressure for the engine brakes.


YOU HAVE A BAD DELETE! .. plain and simple!. ... and it is going to cause repeated engine failures every few years among other problems that you are now noticing.


There is only one way out of the dark alley-way of redneck hack-n-slash garbage mods and programming that someone has lead that truck down into. It is by putting that VGT turbo and original manifold back onto the truck + reliable, safe programming put back into it meant for hauling freight. That BD garbage does absolutely nothing helpful for that engine whatsoever!. Neither does that horrible turbo that was not meant, nor is capable of a proper boost curve for an ISX belong on it.

That is what they do up there in Canada (among other places too)... they butcher engines into oblivion out of sheer and utter stupidity!. - And the biggest names in engine tuning are the most guilty of them all. Places like BD. Puke-Power, DieselsSpit$, etc.etc.etc...

Someone drank the cool-aide good on that one and likely poured tens of thousands$$$ into that complete hack-job, engine killing, red-neck garbage that was done to it.


1). Copy the program out of the ecm (using the Calterm software) and e-mail it to me for e proper review. Since you want to learn about programming a bit.. I can even go over the programming with you live if u like, after it is sent to me. I can show you exactly what someone has done in there.. good, bad... and downright ugly!.

2). Start ordering all the parts to put the VG turbo back onto it. Parts from wrecked engine, new, used.. anything used that is OEM is better than the crap you have on there. - Without getting rid of that garbage manifold and horrible wrong incorrect turbo with its terrible boost curve that was never meant for anything but an old 12/7 engine ... Then there is no hope at all to make that engine perform like it is supposed to ... not one damn bit!.

YOu also need to ensure that it still has the EGR cooler on it.. or a proper bypass coolant-pipe to supply the correct coolant flow to the #5 and #6 cylinders. Most of those horrible delete shops that do those non-vg conversion garbage will also remove the EGR cooler and plate its coolant passages off. - And this is extremely bad for the engine and is not so good for the water pump either.


The idiots who make up this kind of mods and garbage are just that.. complete and utter back-woods morons who know absolutely nothing about how a modern diesel engine actually works. Welcome to the bad delete club!.
ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...5#pid13255


User's Signature: ->: What I post is just my own thoughts and Opinions! --- I AM Full Of S__T!.
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 Thanks given by: fast69mopar
04-01-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #7
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
(04-01-2022 )Rawze Wrote:  The mods that someone has done to that truck are complete trash. Those aftermarket manifolds and turbos are horrible for the ISX engine. That VG turbo it came with was the very thing that sets the proper fuel-air-mix for that engine and also used for generating proper back pressure for the engine brakes.


YOU HAVE A BAD DELETE! .. plain and simple!. ... and it is going to cause repeated engine failures every few years among other problems that you are now noticing.


There is only one way out of the dark alley-way of redneck hack-n-slash garbage mods and programming that someone has lead that truck down into. It is by putting that VGT turbo and original manifold back onto the truck + reliable, safe programming put back into it meant for hauling freight. That BD garbage does absolutely nothing helpful for that engine whatsoever!. Neither does that horrible turbo that was not meant, nor is capable of a proper boost curve for an ISX belong on it.

That is what they do up there in Canada (among other places too)... they butcher engines into oblivion out of sheer and utter stupidity!. - And the biggest names in engine tuning are the most guilty of them all. Places like BD. Puke-Power, DieselsSpit$, etc.etc.etc...

Someone drank the cool-aide good on that one and likely poured tens of thousands$$$ into that complete hack-job, engine killing, red-neck garbage that was done to it.


1). Copy the program out of the ecm (using the Calterm software) and e-mail it to me for e proper review. Since you want to learn about programming a bit.. I can even do this with you live if u like.. show you exactly what someone has done in there.. good, bad... and downright ugly!.

2). Start ordering all the parts to put the VG turbo back onto it. Parts from wrecked engine, new, used.. anything used that is OEM is better than the crap you have on there. - Without getting rid of that garbage manifold and horrible wrong incorrect turbo with its terrible boost curve that was never meant for anything but an old 12/7 engine ... Then there is no hope at all to make that engine perform like it is supposed to ... not one damn bit!.

YOu also need to ensure that it still has the EGR cooler on it.. or a proper bypass coolant-pipe to supply the correct coolant flow to the #5 and #6 cylinders. Most of those horrible delete shops that do those non-vg conversion garbage will also remove the EGR cooler and plate its coolant passages off. - And this is extremely bad for the engine and is not so good for the water pump either.


The idiots who make up this kind of mods and garbage are just that.. complete and utter back-woods morons who know absolutely nothing about how a modern diesel engine actually works. Welcome to the bad delete club!.
ref: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...5#pid13255
I knew it was a bad delete when I drove it for the first time. I have never been a fan of the BD stuff. The good thing is this truck is not my only way to make money. I have a 2005 International 9900iX with an ISX-15 that is De-Mandated and tuned and it runs great. I have a spare stock exhaust manifold and I'll grab a turbo from a friend when I get back to the DFW meteoplex.

The one thing that you mentioned about the EGR cooler is that the cooler is missing and this engine does not have a proper bypass coolant tube. It has the crappy block-off plates for the EGR cooler. I actually have a spare coolant tube in my shop that will.be going on this motor.

As for the tuning I would definitely like to learn and see what has been done and if you would do it live with me that would be awesome. I have a tuning background but not with large diesel engines.

I knew when I bought this truck that it would require extensive work for it to be reliable but that doesn't bother me. I knew what I was buying and Ibought the truck and trailer as a package deal for a great price. When I get home to Texas I will grab a copy of the tune and send it your way for analysis.

Thanks for the help and the info.
replyreply
04-20-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #8
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
(04-01-2022 )Rawze Wrote:  The mods that someone has done to that truck are complete trash. Those aftermarket manifolds and turbos are horrible for the ISX engine. That VG turbo it came with was the very thing that sets the proper fuel-air-mix for that engine and also used for generating proper back pressure for the engine brakes....
Sorry it took me so long to get back to post in the forum. I still read the forum daily. There is a wealth of knowledge here and I appreciate having so much information available on your site.

I installed a used EGR cooler and I have a good stock exhaust manifold to go on as well. The turbo I picked up needs some repairs so I'm in the process of getting my hands on another VGT Turbo.

My question for you is this...

I need to drive this truck to pick up a truck that had a breakdown and get the truck and trailer back to Dallas. If I send you a copy of the tune can you modify the tune so that I can operate the truck in a safe manner with the current setup until I have a VGT Turbo ready to be installed?

Thank you for your help and any insight you provide. Good day Sir.
replyreply
04-21-2022, (Subject: Bad De-Mandate? ) 
Post: #9
RE: Bad De-Mandate?
Without a vgt it would take rigging up a truck on a Dyno with combustion sensors and hard setting alot of tables to get a non vgt to run properly. Most of this work has already been done by the big C for us in secondary tables for vgts that are already in the ecm. While they aren't perfect they are alot closer then someone run and gunning for a non vgt.


User's Signature: 2010 Lonestar - CM871 - 13sp - 3.70s, 2016 T680 - cm2350 - 13sp - 3.36s - skateboarder
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 Thanks given by: fast69mopar




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