MM kicks the teeth out of PukeDits (repost from old forum) ...

[Rawze]

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ATTENTION: This is a re-post from 04-24-2015. It got lost along the way, but I found it after doing some digging...

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Here are some Competition "M M 2" Dyno results ...
This was done to a completely stock truck with about 450k miles on the engine -- 2010 truck with a CM871 ISX,... The dataplate HP rating was 525 HP.


This was done on a very stubborn full Competition Dyno... (they actually had to add more chains because the truck wanted to break away from it) ...

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The engine had a competition pee-dee-eye delete in it, and the owner wanted a custom high-HP "MM" tune in it instead, to see how it compared. He wanted it dyno tested both BEFORE and AFTER and had PukeDits tweak on it, testing it, etc. prior to our arrival. They were arguing with him and demanding that the Holset VG turbo was holding it back, and that their competition big-boss turbo would make it go to 700+ HP. -- He heard rumors about MM and the ability to re-program a stock engine and turbo for big power, so he wanted to try that before shelling out a lot of extra cash.

With the big-name tune in it (that claimed to be 700+, HP already) here were the initial results ...

Final HP at the tires (maximum) : 590 -HP
Final HP at the flywheel (maximum) : 696 -HP
Oil Temp at maximum engine output: 241 -F
EGT at maximum engine output: 1200 -F
* the engine also had a moderate vibration in it, -- They claimed it was all it could take because it was above the HP rating.

Remember, this Dyno is stubborn, so they were all standing around bragging cheering it on like it was supposed to be something impressive, .... That is ...


Until I made a custom MM-style program for it, gearhead flashed it on for me, with the Horsepower set to 950 HP on the tune, made for 100% completely stock VGT and hardware.

In the mean time,... when the truck owner and the competition guys were told that we were programming it for roughly 950-HP to the flywheel, they started laughing in complete disbelief, saying it was not possible to get more than 750 out of one max. Not even if they were to add all their aftergarbage big-boss turbo and all the mods + hi-flow manifolds, etc. installed that they had.

After the truck was re-flashed and MM put in,... they started to run it up, - They had to add more chains because it was trying to jump off. Clearly it was stronger than before, so they shut it down, and re-chained it.

Remember, this truck has nearly half a million miles on it.. and was 100% stock hardware (minus the egr of course). Here is page 4 of 7 where it reached max torque and HP (I have the entire report)...



With MM in it, the final results were ...

Final HP at the flywheel (maximum) : 965.04 HP
Final HP at the tires (maximum) : 817.83 HP @ 1800 RPM in TOP gear
Oil Temp at maximum engine output: (it settled in at about 231 -F )
EGT at maximum engine output: 910 -F
* Excess engine vibration -- NONE


The guys at the dyno, the owner of the truck, and everyone there's knees buckled in disbelief at the difference!...

They did play with boost a bit to try to optimize it, but just like i say to everyone,... they found that 38~ish PSI was the sweet spot for max HP output. They tried to make it go above 39 or so, but it started to fall off again and create exhaust restriction. This falls right in place with my own results a few years ago when I did some competition engines for some Aussie guys back in the MM 1 days.

--= (CM871): 37-38 PSI at 600HP is the absolute max that anyone should ever see if they want to keep from shortening engine life.

Not only was the power right on que with the programming, but notice how much COOLER the engine is running with that much power output. Also there was no more engine vibration, indicating that it clearly could go higher without destruction. This clearly proves beyond ANY shadow of ANY doubt, that M-M-2 is the ONLY WAY to program this motor right, especially if you are going to do high output engine competitions with it.

Since the engine was running cool as a cucumber, and was not producing any excess cylinder pressures, had no excess vibration, and appeared to handle it nicely, the truck owner was asked if he wanted it higher. He said no, because it was an engine with 450k miles on it already, and they did not want to push it harder. -- i don't blame him. An ISX built for that much power etc. needs to have the head hand-torqued, etc. to be reliable.


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(Looking back at this post a year later, some self criticism)...
The 910-F shows that the injection timing needed to be backed off another degree or so. It should have been in the 1090F range. If it were optimized better, it would have easily raised the output another 40-50HP or at hp at that power level,.. so this thing was not even 100% optimized that well yet.
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** THIS WAS FOR TESTING AN COMPETITION ONLY! -- And is a good example on how proper engine mapping that maintains stable, accurate final Crank Angles (+4.2 ATDC roughly) can produce a LOT of power without any excess strain on the components. This is what proper engineering is all about. After the competition, they adjusted the engine back down to a more reasonable 650-HP so it could be used for other off-road purposes.

Before you go bragging about something, i suggest to others --- Put you money where your mouth is!,... This is actual custom tuning, and what it can do when done the right way!

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[Marajin]

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ATTENTION: this is a re-post from the old forum that was done on 08-09-2015 ...
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(post by Rawze)..
And then... in August of 2015 ---


This is NOT BS,... This actually happened!!!,...


From one of the the engine maker themselves, they sent from their headquarters (3 OEM engineers ) attempted to make a competition truck for that SAME COMPETITION DYNO mentioned above!. The truck owners goal was 1,000 HP to the TIRES from a truck that had a CM871 at on their competition dyno on thursday (roughly 08-09-2015). All they could squeeze get out of the truck was roughly 807 HP to the tires at 2700 RPM!!! They worked on this project for a couple three weeks, but the Owner of the Dyno knew that MM had broken 817-HP to the tires back in April (article above).

The truck owner was told about this and contacted well known forum members here (myself and gearhead) because of the success of MM previously on their dyno. Some cummins 3D calculators used (my own), etc. -- Dropping the results from the calculator (set for roughly 1,200-HP to the flywheel ), the engine peaked and broke a new record for an 871 at that dyno, producing 950 HP to the tires on the very first run. This is roughly 1,100 HP at the flywheel!

THIS IS A COMPLETELY BONE STOCK TRUCK (minus the DPF) WITH ALL OEM COMPONENTS AND ITS 100% FACTORY 500-series VGT TURBO!!!


Its too bad those guys they had hired did not properly correct the injection timing, nor compensated for 600mg/stroke interpolation properly, or they could have gotten even more power out of the engine. The owner of the truck was happy with the 950 HP to the tires, and didn't want it mapped higher, so the rest of the tune was left alone.


I would have expected someone hired directly from engine maker to be better than this ... I would have expected the engine maker to actually properly have switched off the AECD and EMO managers so that they did not screw with the final crank angle,... I would have expected much more from them but there again,... They do not sit behind the wheel of one of these trucks all day, day after day, figuring out how the engine that THEY help design actually works!.,

{**Content removed by protection bot**- content.} I suppose,.. humbly ... This makes MM the top engine tune in the world for ISX engines?,... or am I missing something here?,...

[Marajin]

And since then ... In January of 2016 ...

(post by Rawze)..
Unilevers helped build a CM871 for 1500 HP output. It took some doing, and some hardware changes to get that much out of it, but it has been done. I will not go into the details of that engine, but you can bet it had MM in it as well.


Anyone who claims these red motors are weak is simply an ignorant fool!. They are every bit as strong as any other engine out there in their class. Their short rod design makes them touchy and unforgiving if they are not set 100% right though. That is where most people that are making programs for these engine fall short.

[Brock]

Hauking 140,000 behind another guy with the same setup and weight, we hit some pretty savage hills (The kind you crawl up at 15 mph). I instantly popped over to the passing lane and walked away from him, 5 miles later you reach the top and there is a town. I stopped in the gas station for a bathroom break and bag of doritos, when I came out that other guy was just parking. He asked me wtf I had going on there, I said 625 which he said was impossible because he had a big guy 650 tune and there's no way I walked away from him like that.

If he only knew I have 2 real bad camshafts that are about ro be replaced and am driving a automatic!!

[in2trux]

I don't care who ya are, that thar's funny!

[in2trux]

(08-31-2016 )Rawze Wrote:  ===============



Its too bad those guys they had hired did not properly correct the injection timing, nor compensated for interpolation properly, or they could have gotten even more power out of the engine. The owner of the truck was happy with the 950 HP to the tires, and didn't want it mapped higher, so the rest of the tune was left alone.

Was that linear, non linear or polynomial interpolation?
How deep is this rabbit hole?

[Rawze]

(08-31-2016 )in2trux Wrote:  

(08-31-2016 )Rawze Wrote:  ===============



Its too bad those guys they had hired did not properly correct the injection timing, nor compensated for interpolation properly, or they could have gotten even more power out of the engine. The owner of the truck was happy with the 950 HP to the tires, and didn't want it mapped higher, so the rest of the tune was left alone.

Was that linear, non linear or polynomial interpolation?
How deep is this rabbit hole?

They raised the max milligrams per stroke to 600 throughout the engine in an attempt to make more power, but never corrected the interpolation for the fuel tables so that it would know how much actual fuel to give it when it went that high. Rookie mistake if you ask me.

[sbtrucking]

Got mine dynoed before it hit the road few days ago,
It has 524 hp tune with 650k miles and had broken plungers flushed out the ceramic from oil,
Was hoping to get 400hp the wheels it did much better than 80% to the wheels,
Truck just made it back from 4500 mile trip thru the rockies.
Cant be happier with rawzes ecu tune and great engine tune up by mr hagg

[sbtrucking]

@Rawze
Is the crank case pressure reading normal on my dyno?