I have a Cm870 that I’ve been chasing my tail on. Overhauled the truck and in the process we did non vgt turbo and egr delete as well. When we first started the truck we had issues with it running correctly. Come to find out it had static timing. We fix that issue and then we had the current problem. Which has lived with it for 20k miles now. If the truck idles for any period of time it seems to get loaded up. When you take off it’ll smoke, the smoke smells like fuel. Running down the road it’s fine. It doesn’t have blow by and is not using coolant. I did all new timing and metering actuators during overhaul and all new injectors as well. I’m stumped on where to look anymore. I have rest over head and check timing again recently. Took off exhaust manifold and all 6 holes are wet. Smells like fuel. We uploaded a factory tune file in the truck and it seemed to be less smoke but still an issue. Can anyone help
Ill touch on the main points, the VGT, you need it. With it gone you have two options, custom tuning that can make it work but will 100% take a huge amount of life out of the engine. Second is put it back on.
The engine is designed around it, sure it runs fine at speed or more accurately seems okay. The issues and stress and utter loss of control within that engine right now is biblical. The idiots selling the VGT DEL idea will advertise better power and economy but cant tell you why, I've touch on this along with others in another post. The benefits are a direct result of the programing needed to make it functional, and those changes are causing irreparable damage in your engine. Given your symptoms you may be in a balance of your engine not able to work with a critical component missing and extremely harmful tuning.
I would recommend going back to a VGT or start saving money, cause it will cost you an engine again.
(12-09-2023 )Colter Wrote: [ -> ]Prepare for an ear full by everyone
Ill touch on the main points, the VGT, you need it. With it gone you have two options, custom tuning that can make it work but will 100% take a huge amount of life out of the engine. Second is put it back on.
The engine is designed around it, sure it runs fine at speed or more accurately seems okay. The issues and stress and utter loss of control within that engine right now is biblical. The idiots selling the VGT DEL idea will advertise better power and economy but cant tell you why, I've touch on this along with others in another post. The benefits are a direct result of the programing needed to make it functional, and those changes are causing irreparable damage in your engine. Given your symptoms you may be in a balance of your engine not able to work with a critical component missing and extremely harmful tuning.
I would recommend going back to a VGT or start saving money, cause it will cost you an engine again.
shi#t, didn’t realize it was vgt deleted…… what colter said. I’ve played with it, it’s not worth it, it serves absolutely no benefit other than saving a couple grand to spend 30k in the end.
Problem #1 is to get that VGT installed back on it properly. It was a huge mistake to remove it!.
The Cummins engines use the VGT for setting the proper fuel-air mix + to keep internal engine friction at bay (more than half the engine's longevity depends on proper fuel-air-mix) + you loose most of the engine brake that the red engines are know for, as it uses the VGT to do all of that. - You lost all of these things when some utter complete moron talked you into doing that red-neck hack trash.
Problem #2: IS THE BAD PROGRAMING that only shops that are willing to yank that VG turbo off will do. It is only the very worst of garbage-can hack-job delete butchers out there that would even suggest you yank off that VG turbo off the side of that red engine. -- And the very reason that they push that crap and up-sell you all that garbage that was never meant to be on that model engine, is because they are too damn stupid to program the engine and its VG turbo properly to begin with. ..
SO.. your VG turbo was removed during the delete... == this is always always a BAD, ENGINE KILLING DELETE!!. No respectable person who knows the engine well and knows the programming well too.. would ever suggest that you remove that factory turbo!. They would know up front that is it a BAD IDEA!.
<- I hope like h#ell you that you still have your old parts. You are going to need them!. and I hope you did not give any moneys to those incompetent morons either! ... because right about now, you should be asking (more like begging) for it all back and to rewind time on that ridiculously bad decision!
I would suppose that the complete morons who told/sold you on removing that VGT didn't sell it to you properly.
They should have been bragging abut how it cuts the engine life by 50% or less due to excessive internal engine friction and fuel-air mix issues.
They should have been bragging about how the fuel mileage is now going to be significantly LOWER long term, and that its going to costs about $5,000 - $6,000 a year in fuel losses alone for the typical truck owner due to improper fuel-air-mix all the time.
They should have been bragging about how it won't get out of its own way any more (or how some moron had to make it black-smoke to h#ell to get any decent response out of it) on the bottom end any more.
They should have been bragging about how it will over-spool/over boost the engine at the top end of the rpm band.
They should have bragged about how weaker the engine brake is going to be too, and how much more often you will be overhauling it due to all the progressive damage over time due to .. again ... improper fuel-air-mix most all the time.
They should have been bragging about 'their tuning guy' and how good he is at hiding all the ecm's faults that it will now be screaming in the background against this abuse. They should have also bragged about being too stupid to program the VGT properly to begin with, and told you whatever excuses about how its weak, or can;t handle the delete and all the other sort of lies these guys make up. That is exactly why they up-sold you on that garbage to begin with.
.. and unfortunately, unsuspecting truck owners and sh%it-show repair shops are just gullible enough to believe them.
<- At least that would have been the honest truth.
but I seriously doubt it. Most repair shops are beyond incompetent these days to build an ISX engine 100% right, and you will be looking at in-framing it half the expected time or less any ways.
The valve/smoke problem you are describing is usually called 'Wet stacking'. It happens when...
The valve guide seals are leaking in the head. Was it an OEM brand new head?.. A certified OEM reman head?.. OR SOMETHING that was sent off and repaired/re-worked?.
ANYTHING LESS than a certified brand new/OEM (or certified OEM reman head if new is not avail.) head .. and the engine will not last very long. The head will go bad in a few years and you will be doing the job all over again.. all wasted moneys.
IT ALSO HAPPENS if there is a vacuum at the intake manifold at idle. Incorrect delete programming settings where the VG turbo is not keeping up/providing enough positive pressure at the intake manifold at idle. -- but yours no longer has a VG turbo that can be re-programmed in the idle region to prevent this ... so there will always be a vacuum at the intake at idle (not good) and it will be there always, and no one can do anything about it.
It also happens if someone has/sets the injection timing set away too far advanced at idle too. Again, this is a typically a bad-delete programming problem. Again, bad programming is plagued with too-high injection timing settings due to morons who make the 90%+ of seen bad delete programs destroying ISX's with their utter ignorance.
Well I feel like I was just scolded! Guess I’m learning but getting beat up in the process.
I know how to determine timing and read it correctly. This is my second CM870 I’ve overhauled and the first one was flawless. I was told static timing is common and happens on even brand new engines from factory. After fixing that I had OEM injectors in it with this problem then later swapped them with {after-market} one. When overhauling Was in a hurry to get engine done considering it’s my own so that’s the route I took. Couldn’t get an OEM head at the time so I settled for {after-garbage}. I’m sure I’ll get lashings for all this. When I originally put this engine back together, the only thing that was off of it was the EGR it had the VGT turbo on it, and all of this was still happening at the time. That’s when we put the {after-garbage} injectors in and the other turbo non vg. Keeping in mine when I got this truck the head was cracked and it hadn’t made me a dime yet. I needed to run it. I’m looking for guidance not to be beat up here. Im trying!
You got quite the mess on your hands that's for sure. This isn't what you want to hear but the best advice would be to tear it back down and do it right. That includes a brand new factory cummins head and the VGT put back on it.
If you still have problems after that it will be much easier to help you, the way you got it now nobody can help you, that's just the facts.
(12-09-2023 )Kenworth900 Wrote: [ -> ]Well I feel like I was just scolded! Guess I’m learning but getting beat up in the process.
I know how to determine timing and read it correctly. This is my second CM870 I’ve overhauled and the first one was flawless. I was told static timing is common and happens on even brand new engines from factory. After fixing that I had OEM injectors in it with this problem then later swapped them with {after-market} one. When overhauling Was in a hurry to get engine done considering it’s my own so that’s the route I took. Couldn’t get an OEM head at the time so I settled for {after-garbage}. I’m sure I’ll get lashings for all this. When I originally put this engine back together, the only thing that was off of it was the EGR it had the VGT turbo on it, and all of this was still happening at the time. That’s when we put the {after-garbage} injectors in and the other turbo non vg. Keeping in mine when I got this truck the head was cracked and it hadn’t made me a dime yet. I needed to run it. I’m looking for guidance not to be beat up here. Im trying!
At this point, with all the installed after-garbage components + piled on top of that, a no-vg turbo.. your screwed!.
No one can help you, and your on the wrong damn forum if your looking for sympathy or help to try to make nothing but after-garbage junk that has been hobbled together at this point work for you.
- It cannot be done properly, so if this is not the answers your looking for then you are on the wrong damn forum!.
If your not ready to start reversing all these bad decisions then you need to go back to social madai where that kind of half-arssed engine building is praised by all the fools who believe in flat earths and green aliens, etc.. because around here that s$it don't fly!.
WooW! someone saw you coming is all I can say.. That or your desire to save a few$$$ on those after-crap components (or were too damn impatient to gather what was needed properly, etc. whatever dumbarrsse excuses) was the worst damn thing you could have ever done to it. Good luck with that, as no one here on this forum is going to help you perpetuate this absolute trash.
What an absolute shame to do that crap to a $40,000 commercial enigne.