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+--- Thread: Counter-bore tools and parts... (/showthread.php?tid=1339)
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Running rough - 01-10-2017
something tells me, without this site not nearly as many owner operaters would have the ..... to work on thier own engine, I mean quickserve is a godsend, which other engine manufacturer has free service manuals for a few engines, cummins may not build the best engine but the information is hard to beat, also I wonder how competitive manufacturers software compares to the likes of insite and calterm
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Rawze - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017 )Running rough Wrote: something tells me, without this site not nearly as many owner operaters would have the ..... to work on thier own engine, I mean quickserve is a godsend, which other engine manufacturer has free service manuals for a few engines, cummins may not build the best engine but the information is hard to beat, also I wonder how competitive manufacturers software compares to the likes of insite and C@ltr!m
It is my understanding that engine makers like Detroit, Mercedes, Volvo, MAC, and several others simply farm out all the really difficult bulk of ecu work that involves things like fuel-air ratio, charge flow, turbo mapping, injection mapping, emissions compliance, etc.etc. any more to Crysler/Mercedes. From what I have seen, those engine makers do not even do their own programming on that level much any more. Most of their so-called "Engineering" software, like DDDE for the Dteroit for example, is more geared towards re-assigning engines to different applications only, and it is not meant for custom tuning at all. Things like using an engine as a generator instead of a highway truck, or re-assigning it as a school buss engine vs a fire truck engine. It is mostly useless towards actual custom tuning because of this, but still, there are droves of co-called ecu tuners that use it for hacking into an ecu and blindly hex-editing tables and settings, completely guessing in the dark. -- This is why there are so many bad deletes for many different engines out there, and anyone using these blind methods has to resort to suppressing emissions ecu codes by forcing the check engine lights not to come on. - Hook up a diagnostic,.. and there are the codes still starring you in the face.
High end software is used for the "custom tuning" part for these engines, and since it is farmed out, many brands of engines all use slight variations of this same stuff. You will not find it on the Internet or any auto forums. I have not even seen it mentioned or discussed anywhere public either. Searching for their names comes up with mostly blanks too.
I have seen and worked with it first hand myself and it makes C@trm for the red motors look like ameture child-play. I also know of a few others who do actually have it and use it properly outside of the makers themselves, where they do in fact have the ability to do proper "custom tuning" without having to guess at anything. - There are reasons that I say what I do about so much bad tuning running around out there for these engines. It is based on experience, research, and testing that runs much deeper than what is shared and discussed on auto forums.
I have seen most every tuning program and method that others do, and the bulk of it clearly points to a lack of understanding of the enormous complexity of how a modern diesel engine actually works.
NO, it is not my place to mention the names of the stuff, etc. but it has its roots seated firmly with matlab and simulink...
. -- I only post this because I think people should know that there is ways to do things properly without endless hours of guessing and copying others work, then coming up with half-baked processes that do as much harm as they do good.
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - ceff_by - 01-16-2017
nice vid. If headgasket blown counterbores MUST be checked -- coolant pressure and blown gasket in 90% is consequence -- reason is bad counterbores (usually exhaust side) and\or head cracks. Wondering that many shops have no idea about liners fretting\moving issue, they just drop new gasket and replace bearings with the hammer.. Wtf. . Here is manual from cummins. Its easy way to see if liners need to be repaired even without actual measurement.
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Rawze - 01-17-2017
(01-16-2017 )ceff_by Wrote: nice vid. If headgasket blown counterbores MUST be checked -- coolant pressure and blown gasket in 90% is consequence -- reason is bad counterbores (usually exhaust side) and\or head cracks. Wondering that many shops have no idea about liners fretting\moving issue, they just drop new gasket and replace bearings with the hammer.. Wtf. . Here is manual from cummins. Its easy way to see if liners need to be repaired even without actual measurement.
I agree, but not every mechanic is willing to pull pistons and liners out every time a head comes off. - They might as well be doing an inframe at that point. Because of this, many will simply check liner height, and call it good if they are in spec on height alone. They will assume that since the height is good, the liner is not fretted, and there is no problems.
BIG MISTAKE TO ASSUME THIS! -- Yet it seems to be the most common method, and a lot of engines have problems again in only a short while, all that money wasted for the repair.
====
FIRST AND FOREMOST! -- ALWAYS, before the head is going to be removed from an ISX, a coolant pressure test (letting it sit over-night) with 20-PSI should be done with the oil pan off. After it sits, checking for coolant buildup at the bottom of the liners, etc. but even this will not reveal liner issues sometimes, but it should be done regardless. Sometimes, a liner simply will not show leakage unless it is under high compression (engine load) while the engine is running.
A slightly better method for determining liner fretting this is to compress the liner on the passenger side to 100 ft-lbs, and only 10 ft-lbs on the intake side, and check the heights, but even then, it will not always reveal itself.
SO,... This leads to the question of what else can be checked while the head is off, without pulling pistons liners out?
===
Here is one alternative method...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=899&pid=7648#pid7648
That method can reveal a lot sometimes, but the head has to be as old as the engine block for this method to work.
Another method is to measure the thickness of the fire rings in the head gasket and compare the thickness from the drivers side to the passenger side for each cylinder. This will almost always reveal what the differences in height are at the counter-bore before the liner is pulled out. The fire ring gets crushed unevenly when there is liner fretting.
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There is a truck with a CM2250 engine in Mr. Hags shop right now that had 2 dropped liners in it. It was taken to another shop the first time it started spitting coolant out of the radiator cap, and the first shop told him he had a bad head, and bad head gasket. They checked liner height and said everything else was good. -- a month later, coolant issues again...
when the liners were tested, they were all correct height,.. again, but compressing them on the passenger side only revealed that some were as as low as 0.004" below where they should have been. The bottom of the head showed no signs of the fretting, because it had just been replaced and had not worn from it yet. - I will bet that the old head would have had grooves in it like I mentioned here -- http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=899&pid=7648#pid7648
Anyhow, the head gasket also revealed the height differences too.
Sad part is that they charged this guy almost $13,000 dollars to replace the head and gasket. NOW he needs ANOTHER NEW HEAD! because they in fact did NOT put a new head on, although they charged him for it. They put a head on that was date stamped 2012, and when they were called out on it, they revealed that they had installed an old used head that had been cleaned up a bit.
Some of the other of what I would consider mistakes they made, included re-using the injector fuel supply tubes that go into the head. This caused massive multiple leaks in the fuel rail. YOU SHOULD NOT RE-USE THOSE TUBES IF YOU REPLACE THE HEAD!. The chances of having a leaky rail after a while becomes very high. - His truck had exactly this problem only a few days after the head was replaced by them.
- I think the guy clearly got taken for all he was worth on that,... I can understand a shop not being great at ISX engines,. ok,.. but to charge so much money and only put a stinking used head on it? -- C'mon -- That is downright dirty if you ask me!. .. It is sad indeed the poor quality of what shops do these days.
It is now at Mr. Hags shop getting done correctly this time. I happened to go over there for other things, and decided to help the guy out a bit, so I used the opportunity to show another forum member how to counter-bore a block that wanted to learn more. We counter-bored his block for him for free and the new liner height is going to be 0.013". Much better than the 0.010" it was from factory. We were shooting for 0.014" but had to cut a bit extra to clean a questionable step out of one of the holes that was there from the factory.
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - ceff_by - 01-17-2017
100% true! Nothing more to say.
p.s. On volvo its ridiculously fast and easy method to pressurize system -- just blow shop air to tube on side cap couple times till it starts releasing pressure (abt 14psi). Sometimes usefull to find small leaks outside too.
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Rig Wrench - 01-18-2017
Does anyone know how to compensate for an extension on a torque wrench? Like if the head gets torqued to 300 ft lbs, but then you put a 10" extension it to get enough depth with the socket, does it change the accuracy? Maybe its been discussed before. Just checkin
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Hammerhead - 01-18-2017
(01-18-2017 )Rig Wrench Wrote: Does anyone know how to compensate for an extension on a torque wrench? Like if the head gets torqued to 300 ft lbs, but then you put a 10" extension it to get enough depth with the socket, does it change the accuracy? Maybe its been discussed before. Just checkin
Good question!
I would want to keep the extension length as short as possible.
I'm not sure if an impact extension would be harder and lose less torque or if it would be designed to actually absorb some of the torque due to the very nature of high torque impact guns so that they won't shatter? I'd like to hear more of this from someone that would know about it.
A test would be to torque a bolt up to spec with the extension, then remove the extension and retorque the bolt to check. It would require one that you access withou the extension of course, but it should give you an idea of the net loss of the extension.
I know my 10" 3/4 drive extension I use to torque my wheel nuts doesn't noticably twist up to 475 ft/lbs. I've had somebody torque up while I watched to actually see if it did. It's not a fancy brand name one, but it is quite solid.
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Rawze - 01-19-2017
(01-18-2017 )Rig Wrench Wrote: Does anyone know how to compensate for an extension on a torque wrench? Like if the head gets torqued to 300 ft lbs, but then you put a 10" extension it to get enough depth with the socket, does it change the accuracy? Maybe its been discussed before. Just checkin
I have had this argument with 100 other mechanics in the past, and have proven them wrong every single time and time again...
Last I checked, extension bars were NOT made of rubber. The ONLY WAY for the torque to change by any amount that would mean the difference on a very tight bolt using a socket extension, would only be because the wrench was no longer 90 degrees from the socket... I.E. -- a swivel head or swivel extension, combined with someone not rotating the torque wrench properly, or at an angle.
Want to prove someone else wrong? --- use a torque wrench to torque a bolt 3 or 4 times, marking its final position --- grab a crappy 1-foot extension,,. loosen the bolt and re-torque it 3 or 4 times again. it will end up in the same place unless you aren't holding your wrench properly.
NOW,... when you consider say, 3 or 4 feet,.. and there is spring force build up in the long extension(s) bar .... Same thing applies, but you will have to rotate the ratchet a bit more to get to that same torque. This is because of the added "twist" in all the components as you apply force. - Even so, you still end up with the same torque on the bolt when the wrench clicks, even though you rotated it further to get there.
Lastly, this is a moot point, argued all over the internet,..and is a complete waste of time to argue away -- You are not building a rocket motor, and an error of 5-10 degrees rotation on a bolt that would be so tight as to "twist" a heavy duty extension bar is completely irrelevent and meaningless in an engine.
RE: Counter-bore tools and parts... - Rig Wrench - 01-19-2017
Why is it when on an air impact wrench, it will run out of torque with an extension, take the extension off and it turns the bot/nut more?