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+--- Thread: Stemco wheel seals (/showthread.php?tid=2197)
RE: Stemco wheel seals - Hammerhead - 10-05-2017
(10-04-2017 )dhirocz Wrote: Sounds about right.
I've already installed centrimatics. Tires are about 30k old.
Those wheel centering devices actually work? Doesn't the wheel center itself via the hub? I can see maybe a little fore and aft play before tightening down the lugs...I never thought much about them for this reason...care to share?
As far as end play goes, I have a magnetic base with a dial indicator I can use for measuring this. I figured I would set the end play more precisely after the new bearings had some seat time, but haven't decided how to approach this yet either. I'm still waiting to get home so work has not started yet.
Wheel bearing seating is done during hub installation. Follow ProTorq's installation instructions and they will be seated properly. As far as "break in wear" of tapered bearings, they don't require a "resetting".
With new bearings, I would set them at 0.003" total, push hub in and that's zero, pull out, and that's the reading I set at 0.003" on new bearings.
With used bearings, I set them following ProTorq's instructions, then from neutral I pull the hub and set at 0.002".
Doing it this way, I have found "new" bearings done the first way match the used bearings setting when inspected the following year.
A magnetic base stuck to the axle stub with the dial indicator needle on the gasket surface of the hub is exactly what I use.
This is always done hub only, no tires/rims.
Read Post # 16 of this thread for the elaboration of the Tru-Balance devices.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1531&page=2
A lot of guys have no use for the centering devices, to each their own.
From someone who owns and uses a lathe frequently, I understand how much properly centering anything that rotates will improve uniformity and reduce wear.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - ZeroNthedark - 10-05-2017
Hey Hammer, I just did a complete brake system R&R on my drive axles and didn't have any issues until it came time to do the hubs. Because of time constraints, I reused the old bearings because they didn't look too bad. I've never done them before, so I looked up the manual(Eaton LMS) plus Timken for good measure, and they both called for 300ft/lb on the first nut, without using the metal sleeve. When I asked for 2nd opinion, I get everything from needing to back it off and re-torquing to a lower value to one guy who just uses a 3/4" air gun and had no idea there was an actual torque value on bearings.
What am I missing? How bad did I screw up? When I took everything apart they were barely finger tight, so I'm kind of worried.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - Hammerhead - 10-05-2017
(10-05-2017 )ZeroNthedark Wrote: Hey Hammer, I just did a complete brake system R&R on my drive axles and didn't have any issues until it came time to do the hubs. Because of time constraints, I reused the old bearings because they didn't look too bad. I've never done them before, so I looked up the manual(Eaton LMS) plus Timken for good measure, and they both called for 300ft/lb on the first nut, without using the metal sleeve. When I asked for 2nd opinion, I get everything from needing to back it off and re-torquing to a lower value to one guy who just uses a 3/4" air gun and had no idea there was an actual torque value on bearings.
What am I missing? How bad did I screw up? When I took everything apart they were barely finger tight, so I'm kind of worried.
Re-using bearings is fine. I re-use bearings all the time, even at the weights I run.
I see no reason to throw out a perfectly good bearing just for fun, that's my money and I'm just like Rawze I like to keep my money!
I inspect the rollers and the races closely, and if my thumbnail can't catch anything, they're fine IMHO, and get re-used. To each their own, but that's what I do and I've never had a bearing failure yet.
As far as the Timken bearings with the tapered spacer cone I have never done one of those myself, so I make NO CLAIMS OF EXPERIENCE on this subject! I hope I'm perfectly clear.
I have watched them being installed, and yes 300 ft/lbs was the torque setting I saw used. I told the mechanic I saw doing it I wouldn't give two shits for half a second, I'd still dial indicator it to verify endplay, but I'm anal. He did and it was right. I know 300 ft/lbs sounds high, but if the spacer is the correct length, you are ONLY clamping the inner races together against the axle race stop, the outer removable taper races are spaced via the prescribed clearance in the hub.
I understand the concept, but...Once again, I have never personally done one of these.
Even with the spacer, I would still verify the endplay.
Just like drivers for the most part ain't what they used to be, mechanics aren't anymore either, so they're making things that can be incorrectly assembled with bad concequences stupid simple as well. They're trying to remove procedure failures from the equation.
However 300ft/lbs WITHOUT the spacer cone is absolutely TOO TIGHT! The spacer cone is what sets the end play, without the spacer cone just follow the ProTorq instructions (if that's the nuts you used) to set and verify the endplay that way. When ProTorq's are adjusted properly and you take them apart a while later, they are barely finger tight on the threads, however the endplay is still in spec. It feels tighter when you first assemble it because there are no wheels attached, and it hasn't "bounced and banged" down the road and you aren't strong enough to simulate that on just the hub and bearings alone.
A spacer and shims with tapered bearings is how all Harley wheels are mounted on the axles. They are shimmed to proper endplay verified by dial indicator, so I can't see why the same principle wouldn't work. (until '02, I haven't touched anything newer)
Bottom line, I would never close off a wheelend on anything without verifying the endplay, too tight or too loose and they will certainly fail prematurely and/or unexpectedly.
If you're unsure, find and follow the part manufacturers procedures correctly, I'm just some jackass spouting crap on the interwebs....
ProTorq's instructions can be found here: http://www.stemco.com/f/qbin/Pro-Torq_Literature.pdf
RE: Stemco wheel seals - ZeroNthedark - 10-05-2017
Ok, thanks a lot for the input. One axle didn't have a spacer, 2 did, and the place I got the bearings from said throw them away anyway. I'll have to redo them this weekend, because they were done without the spacer. Might as well give the ProTorqs a go while I'm at it, they look interesting.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - dhirocz - 10-05-2017
I'll be doing mine when I get home for my 34. I don't plan on reusing the spacers unless the directions tell me to. I just can't see how I can precisely set end play with those things in there, but I could be mistaken.
I have to agree, it looks like a way to keep your average hack from screwing the job up. Lots of liability in wheel bearings.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - Hammerhead - 10-05-2017
(10-05-2017 )dhirocz Wrote: I'll be doing mine when I get home for my 34. I don't plan on reusing the spacers unless the directions tell me to. I just can't see how I can precisely set end play with those things in there, but I could be mistaken.
I have to agree, it looks like a way to keep your average hack from screwing the job up. Lots of liability in wheel bearings.
Like you say "it looks like a way to keep your average hack from screwing the job up", but I can't believe there aren't shims to adjust end play. I mean bearing manufacturers have damn good machines, but do they really repeatedly make millions of one part with 0.000" tolerance?
Like you say, there's an awful lot of liability there.
That's probably why they say to throw them away.
Timken makes the bearing sets I use when building Harley engines. The bearings come in a complete kit; a pair of tapered bearings & races, a spacer ring for the inner races and a spacer "snap" ring that requires a special tool to install. The spacer snap ring locks into the case and the "narrow" end of the races get installed against the spacer snap ring. The combination of these two rings sets the endplay precisely. The instructions with the kit explicitly states NEVER intermix parts from different kits. There isn't nearly the liability there that I can see.
That's the left case main bearing set, not a wheel bearing set on a Class 8 truck, so I would have to see it in the instructions to re-use the spacer with different bearings...which is why I'm dumbfounded there isn't shim kits for them.
I honestly can't say I'd recommend ever re-using that spacer.
It just doesn't seem right to me, but wtf do I know.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - dhirocz - 10-05-2017
I gotcha. But if there were shims...someone would screw it up lol
It would almost take talent to screw that up. You can certainly find someone reckless and careless enough to mess up something like that...those special types are out there.
Part of the reason I got the pro-torque nuts is so I could dial in my end play and not have to use those spacers.
Throw them away? Sell more parts and reduce liability too instead of measure them and put them back on? I can them deciding on that at a meeting.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - JMBT - 10-06-2017
Dhirocz, why would you take out the spacers? Run the spacers especially if you are reusing the bearings that came from a hub with the spacer in it. The bearings sets for a preset hub, (with the spacer) are of a tighter tolerance then a normal bearing set, they are meant to be run with the spacer and torqued to 300ft/lbs. The bearing sets for use in a preset hub have different numbers. Bearings for spacer hubs from General and Hyatt have a “PS” stamped after the model number on the bearing. Timkin just uses a totally different number for the same size bearings that are for preset hubs.
Use the spacer, get the correct bearings, torque the inner nut to 300 while spinning the hub, outer jam nut to 200 and you are good to go! Easy breezy! Hub will feel tight when you spin it, but the dial will show .003-.004. Put in synthetic 75w90, not Pukas hub oil and she will run cool.
RE: Stemco wheel seals - dhirocz - 10-06-2017
I'm putting on pro torque lock nuts. Besides, I don't know how the truck was maintained before I got it so they would be getting pitched anyway.