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+--- Thread: ISX OIL COOLERS (/showthread.php?tid=410)
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RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - Marajin - 01-28-2017
(01-28-2017 )Tanker93 Wrote: ...
Deletes over here have been costly for us.. Obviously everybody's certain and assures you they've got the right tune for your cpl and blah blah then unfortunately some of them have gone bad. Majority however have been successful (running fixed turbo too). But finding 1 good, reliable tuner has been hard.
Countless people with bad deletes come here a lot. 99% of the places that do them don't even know how these newer engines really work, and if you have been talking to people convincing you to remove the VG turbo,.. I feel very very sorry for your engines. You have likely been taken for a ride.
Read this carefully..
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=729
Bad tuners and shops are everywhere and full of false promises.
Stop torturing your engines and PM Rawze your number. He can give good advice on what should be correct, what is not, and who you can get in contact with.
.
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - Waterloo - 01-28-2017
Tanker93, call/PM Rawze... I have been running the @m*m^2 for two years, 08 CM-871 factory 600hp. The only issue with the mm is the fact that it exposed underlying issues that required an in frame. That was not the fault of the tune, this was previous damage from the prior owner. Along with my TOTAL ignorance on these DPF systems. Truck is running fantastic, fuel mileage is up and I have yet to see a check engine light on my dash. Knock on wood. The rest of the truck... No comment.
The tune is so good, that when I had the in frame done at my local International dealer, he backed their work with a full warranty, covering labor and parts for two years, one year on a few components as per Cummins. He was very impressed to say the least, as was the mechanic that did the work. I had the reman turbo fail, and they replaced without a question. Can't beat that.
If it were not for Rawze, I would have gone bankrupt, it was that bad.
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - Rawze - 01-28-2017
hmm. Found more info on oil temp issues i posted a while back.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1008&pid=8647#pid8647
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - Waterloo - 01-28-2017
From my understanding, talking to Unilever, these coolers do fail. I replaced both of mine when the in frame was done along with the oil temp sensor and thermostat...
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - Rawze - 01-29-2017
(01-28-2017 )Tanker93 Wrote: ...
Deletes over here have been costly for us.. Obviously everybody's certain and assures you they've got the right tune for your cpl and blah blah then unfortunately some of them have gone bad. Majority however have been successful (running fixed turbo too). But finding 1 good, reliable tuner has been hard.
...
He PM'd me. He is from Aussie. It is likely that his application is of constant high-torque? -- and I know I have seen several people from down under tell me that it is very difficult and expensive to get replacement VG turbochargers, but that a Holset HX60 series turbo's isn't too bad as a replacement if the VG fails because they aren't as concerned about lower rpm and lower torque fuel mileages like we are here in the states as much. Their applications, RPM, Weights, etc. are much different than ours, that is for sure.
I am not a proponent of removing the VG turbo at all because you loose its wide range of adjustability that contributes greatly towards both efficient power and fuel economy. Even if you live in Aussie and have high torque/power needs, it still has an advantage when programmed correctly. It can be adjusted to suit the task well enough, but I also do understand the problems with availability, durability, and expense too. One must be weighed against the other long term for best profitability.
That being said, it is not a good idea to remove the VG turbo here in the states or in any other applications that require a wide range of varying speeds and loads at all. You just loose too much efficiency, low end torque, etc. and it costs more in fuel losses and extra wear to the engine than to NOT have one. A typical replacement of 500 - 600k miles or so (I have seen them last 800k+ when cared for) as they wear out still costs much less than the fuel loss differences in that time span. I think a lot of people also don't realize that even a non-vg turbo lifespan is about 800k miles, not a million+ like some would have people believe.
With all that said, and given you are in Aussie land, I can see where some would have you remove the VG, but this does not mean what program someone has done or has made for you is correct by any means. Most deletes I have seen from over there that axe the VG turbo do not have proper corrections in them for things like re-establishing correct inlet temps etc. and this throws off the entire combustion cycle in the ECM. The result is less than optimal, and can even be harmful long term.
I know that I have helped out Unilevers and Gearhead both in the past for figuring out and calculating/correcting these same deficiencies, and know that they have taken that info and used it to work out the proper methods through established testing. Myself, I do not mess with non-vg trucks, engines, etc. and leave that to them, as they have put much effort in figuring out just that.
- Even so, both of them are quick to say that a non-vg IS quite a bit less fuel efficient for the same reasons I have stated above, and Gearhead in particular put it clearly. There is a big difference in being able to adjust BOTH fuel and air, vs forcing the engine and its fueling system to become a slave of the "fixed" amount of air that the turbo is willing to provide at different RPM and torque ranges. - The power curve becomes much different, and is a lot more pronounced when everything is re-adjusted to be in spec. This makes the engine sluggish at take-off, almost to the point of having to over-fuel the engine to get it going, but have good efficiency at higher torque, and in certain RPM ranges, will match or even slightly exceed a VG turbo but not by enough to make up for the rest. Overall, the performance suffers for a highway truck in most freight hauling applications.
Either way, I hope you are using staying with Holset turbochargers. Other brands have been proven less efficient by quite a bit these days.
====
If you want to know if your programming is good, I would suggest sending a copy of what is in your truck to one of them (and/or myself) for a look to see how correct it is. - At least, if I owned a truck that has been custom tuned and was not sure,.. That is what I would do.-- I would have it analyzed by a couple different people and get some solid opinion and explanation on what is in there, and what changes were made.
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - gearhead - 01-29-2017
I have noticed that these reman engines are running higher oil temps than previous engines with same tune. I have found that they are making the oil coolers out of stainless steel now and not aluminum anymore. They hold up better but run hotter. I have seen this several times now running at 220 bobtail.
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - schISM - 01-29-2017
So after I watched the oil system video I was like "OK, no thermostat equals hotter oil, ya gotta have it". But it just didn't make sense, how does a thermostat keep your oil cooler? Well according to the video it allows the oil to bypass the coolers when the oil is cold and redirects the warm oil through the cooler as the oil "warms up". Therein lies the misconception. Cummins is saying the "cold oil" bypasses the cooler. OK, we know that the thermostat doesn't open until the oil reaches 235 degrees fahrenheit. So according to Cummins any oil less than 235 degrees is "cold". I've never seen my oil temp. over 225 degrees so one could reason I've never utilized my oil cooler.
Now what's gonna happen if I take a thermostat that as far as I can tell has never opened out of an oil passage that is now wide open to the oil filter but also to an oil cooler? Physics will dictate that the oil takes the path of least resistance which at first glance is obviously the wide open port directly to the filter, certainly not through a restrictive oil cooler. But wait, the oil cooler and the bypass port joins together just before the filter and because of that there can't be delta pressure in the oil gallery. Now the volume of flow through the cooler will be less than the bypass port in theory but nonetheless there will be flow through the cooler resulting in lower oil temps......I THINK. I've never tried this so I couldn't say for sure.
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - Tanker93 - 01-30-2017
Haha I wasn't gonna get into a screaming match over this even though everybody seems alright. All were really trying to do is turn these engines back into gen 2's. Good power, decent fuel and great reliability. Exactly what you need when pulling anywhere from 100-171 ton over long rough and sometimes steep terrain miles and miles from repair shops let alone your own workshop.
In our early days of these engines we once got a bill from cummins for $12,000 for a turbo change they had to go out and do on the side of the road for us. It was instances like this that made it obvious something had to change. I've been aware of this forum and the whole vgt vs fixed turbo for a good year or two now but like I said, it's too hard to find the right person to do the tune.
The guy that currently puts the tunes in actually connects his laptop to the truck while (via internet connection) another guy in the eastern states changes the file. Have been trying to get the name and number of this mysterious computer guy just so I can discuss what he's exactly doing and to find out exactly what he knows. The first guy I had come and do a tune (2013) admitted to me while he was doing it that he wouldn't know one end of a spanner from the other! alarm bells should've gone off then but being that we were desperate for an easy fix to our problems we still went through with it. Luckily that engine didnt blow but inevitably the turbo went eventually..
So now that most of the trucks have been converted and seem to be fine, I still can't sleep right at night wondering if there's something not right and they're all just timebombs waiting to blow. And I'm not gonna sit around and ignore the issue until things start going wrong.
When I can get a print out of what's in them, I'll be sure to message a couple of you for your opinions and even post results somewhere in this forum for all to learn from.
Thanks for your replys fellas!
Ps - changed a oil thermostat in one of them today. When I went to get the new one it read 215 deg far on it (old one was a 235 deg far)
RE: ISX OIL COOLERS - schISM - 01-30-2017
Keep us updated on your progress tanker93, and if ya got that old thermostat ya changed can ya post a pic?
I've never messed with one and I'm curious of the design, specifically whether or not it's able to block the bypass port when it opens to the oil cooler side. Thanx.