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+--- Thread: New CPL# for rebuild (/showthread.php?tid=4173)
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - Moose - 02-20-2019
I did this during my rebuild except I didn't jump from a family 1 to a family 3. I had it built as a CPL 3839 instead of the 3838 it was originally built as.
Hindsight? I wouldn't do it again. 600 is fun until your rate gets cut and fuel rises... If I ever get the gumption to hire a driver again I'd either have to get it turned way down or by some streak of luck get on the knows how to drive by a boost & pyro and not grenade it.
Even a 450/1650 rating feels night and day when demandated. There is one that hauls with me and because he is geared better has NO problems keeping up.
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - NoTime - 02-21-2019
I’m putting on a new head as my mechanic said redoing the old one was waste of time and money. I wanted to redo the head because I have seen so many rebuilds lately with new OEM Cummins heads cracking shortly after the rebuild. I know 1 guy that has a logging company that lost 2 heads within a few weeks of there rebuilds but the were demandated while being rebuilt. My thought was if it’s got 580,000 it should be a head I don’t have to worry about cracking but I’m no pro mechanic so I’ll listen to mine.
As far as bumping up the hp we decided to do 565 1850 to not have to worry about the rest of the driveline. But I haul propane and sometimes a lot more than I’m supposed too and unfortunately we don’t have the time to ease along to try and save fuel. The best I ever got with the 450 is 5.1mpg hauling legal up in Michigan on flatlands. 90 percent of my running is the hills of WV and KY and it’s kind of disheartening when I get passed by coal trucks grossing twice what I am so it may use a little more fuel but as long as I keep getting $3.00 plus a mile I’m ok with that.
And the only thing different between a 450 and a 565 is the turbo. All internals, can, injectors are the same. If you want 605 2050 than you have to add a different head to the list. I figured 580,000 on stock turbo might as well buy a new one and get the bigger one which is the same price as a turbo for a 450.
I did get a bit upset today when they asked me if I wanted a new oil pump. I can’t believe a new Cummins kit doesn’t include a oil pump at these prices. But definitely not demandating anything for at least a year now!
And on the gear change thing I understand going from my 3.55 to a 3.90 would get you going faster from a dead stop but how does it really help on hills? Once you hit that hill and rpms start dropping how is the 3.90 going to be any better than say a 3.36?
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - Rawze - 02-21-2019
(02-21-2019 )NoTime Wrote: ...
And on the gear change thing I understand going from my 3.55 to a 3.90 would get you going faster from a dead stop but how does it really help on hills? Once you hit that hill and rpms start dropping how is the 3.90 going to be any better without slowing down as much than say a 3.36?
It will help a bunch compared to those 3:36's. Those tall gears cannot get out of their own way once your loaded, and cause the engine to fall off in rpm too quickly, dropping HP like a rock when you hit any kind of hill. -- Horsepower is what does work,.. not simply torque. HP is torque + RPM combined,.. Get that engine spinning at 1650+ and a better gear ratios, it will pull those hills much much better without nearly the amount of speed losses + save you a bunch of fuel when loaded.
Maybe some of those super-B guys who haul a whole lot more weights than you do will chime in, I am sure they would agree.
Ask any of the guys from Aussie-land on here pulling 50x what we pull over here + 90~% engine loads for the entire lifetime of the engine, and they will all tell you that the ISX will pull its best and last its longest at 1650~ RPM's, and that it will beat itself to death in short order below about 1350 or so .. They figured that out the hard way long long ago and gear all their trucks as such.
As far as the HP, crack heads thing,.. SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE IS DOING SOMETHING VERY WRONG if that shop / your friends are getting cracked OEM heads,... Most likely bad de-mandate programming + bad gearing for the application (beating the hell out of the engine at 1200rpm and lower),.. Bad programming it is a plague that too many people are in denial over as they have been duped into that horrible mod-scene bad-programming + falsehoods of tall gear saves fuel complete bulls#it crap like sheep in the slaughter-house.
Here is the latest fine example of how bad just about every shop out there really is when put to the test ...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=4140&pid=35602#pid35602
its called the bad delete club and it sounds just like your friends and that shop doing that work are squarely caught in its grip...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1558&pid=13255#pid13255
Tell those guys whit the de-mandate programming they need to have their (likely horrible) programming looked at for a second opinion. That is where you will likely find the 'flaw' -- In the in the head (also in the truck owners head) for getting duped into a bad de-mandate (+ possibly combined with bad driving habits by using bad gearing?) for what is being done.. or in the head of the engine from the programs tearing them up repeatedly. -- Don't so be quick to blame engine part failures until you have ruled out some horrible f$ker's hack-job garbage programming,.. because 99.9% of the time,.. that is exactly what is wrong,.. i have seen it hundreds of times on here, and when helping others. This is especially the case with those expensive big-name delete shops out there,.. and most if not just about all of the smaller shops that do that stuff copy the big-name bad methods, spreading that horrible crap like it is todays fresh apple pie, all with an alligator smile and an open hand on your wallet.
- Good/safe de-mandate can be done correctly,.. It is just damned difficult to find anyone willing to do it 100% the right way using the right methods + using up to date established quality programming. I only know of a couple places/people that I could say qualify for this and it is not because I want to promote them, they are already too busy to help people half the time as it is, .. it is simply the way things are unfortunately.
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - Moose - 02-21-2019
(02-21-2019 )NoTime Wrote: And on the gear change thing I understand going from my 3.55 to a 3.90 would get you going faster from a dead stop but how does it really help on hills? Once you hit that hill and rpms start dropping how is the 3.90 going to be any better than say a 3.36?
It makes a big difference...
The best way I can put it is to compare it to an 18 speed mountain bike. Even if you're feeling your oats climbing that hill, standing up on the pedals to maintain speed in such a tall ratio, you'll find that clicking a few cogs down and maybe peddling a little faster is easier on you and saves your stamina in the end.
I'm either 90k or 30klbs. This last truck I bought I settled for the 3.55's that it came with and just that little difference from the 3.70-3.90 I was looking for makes a huge difference in top gear cruise RPM and where it's happiest.
All I can tell you is to take this all in, spec the truck for what it does and to quote a radio personality, "live like no one else so later you can live like no one else."
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - NoTime - 02-21-2019
The bad demandate for the cracked heads makes more sense because all the guys having that trouble are coming from the same shop which is one of those mom and pop garages. Mine is at a Cummins shop only because it was the closest to stop and see why my engine was eating a gallon of oil every few hundred miles. I have tried to leave this engine bone stock since I have owned it and it didn’t by any means give me a terrible time but after seeing that head so carboned up and I change my oil every 15,000 I will not let this new rebuild do that again.
As for the gearing I’m definitely not saying your wrong but just like Moose’s example when I get tired I just drop gears. Ultimately more hp gets u up faster
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - Rawze - 02-21-2019
(02-21-2019 )NoTime Wrote: ...
Ultimately more hp gets u up faster
let me put it in basic terms,... you can set your engine on 600hp with those 3:36's,.. i can get in any truck I want with 3:90's or 4:11's and 500hp,.. and will out-run you all day long with the same weight in those hills. -- better gearing will make my engine and drive-line run higher rpm ranges,.. keeping more HP to the tires because that drive-line is spinning faster. the biggest loss in the system is always in the final gears of the rears.
I have met plenty of guys in the past who run in and out of quarries (nothing but steep long pulls) with their buddies that one guy has 475HP engine, going around everyone up the long grade and the other 600+ crying he wants more more more hp because that 600+ is always last one to the other end because the stupid truck was simply geared too tall. -- Throw your logic out the window, thats how trucking works.
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - Waterloo - 02-21-2019
Change the gearing, and pray your Cummins shop knows what they are doing. Make sure they machine the block (cut for liners) and set the liner protrusions at .0014 height. If they do not machine the block, you will be in framing in the next two years, if not sooner.
I'm a member of the bad in frame club, just as bad, if not worse than the bad delete club. How much do I have under the hood? Around $80,000 or there about, not including all of the down time. A licensed Cummins repair shop did the first in frame. The second in frame was done in Rawze's driveway (helped me get it right, asked for no money or nothing in return). Funny too, that Cummins shop installed CM-2350 450hp parts, including injectors, pistons, cams, etc., in to my 600hp CM-871... They said the machined the block, they did not. Liners were just thrown in. Front gear train was ready to blow apart too. The motor was a mess, just ask Rawze. That was a licensed Cummins shop. They did step up and send the parts, but it still took 4 months to do the job with wait times and weather, and me being a slow poke.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2972&pid=25356#pid25356
Don't be a victim.
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - NoTime - 02-21-2019
What is it they should be milling on the block so I can keep my eyes on them? I know about the .014 liner sticking up past top of block but I thought the just shimmed under the liners to get that measurement right.
Also I asked if I should go to a twin element oil cooler and they haven’t answered yet.
I really appreciate the help Rawze I’m just here for help and to help in anyway I can. I’m no power hungry guy by any means it’s just business to me. I have only had 1 quarter on my IFTA over 5 MPG with the 450 and I never had a quarter under 5 with my old 2007 600 2050 870. Unfortunately the company I lease to has yearly requirements on trucks or I would still be in my 2007 that had 1.3 million and never had the head off. Hate technology!!!
RE: New CPL# for rebuild - Rawze - 02-21-2019
(02-21-2019 )NoTime Wrote: What is it they should be milling on the block so I can keep my eyes on them? I know about the .014 liner sticking up past top of block but I thought the just shimmed under the liners to get that measurement right.
Also I asked if I should go to a twin element oil cooler and they haven’t answered yet.
I really appreciate the help Rawze I’m just here for help and to help in anyway I can. I’m no power hungry guy by any means it’s just business to me. I have only had 1 quarter on my IFTA over 5 MPG with the 450 and I never had a quarter under 5 with my old 2007 600 2050 870. Unfortunately the company I lease to has yearly requirements on trucks or I would still be in my 2007 that had 1.3 million and never had the head off. Hate technology!!!
Single oil cooler element is fine. Only time second oil cooler may be needed is if the engine spends hours and hours at a constant very high engine load. Decent de-mandate programming also has a lot to do with maintaining proper oil temps. 90% of the time people have high oil temp issues, it is because of bad de-mandate programming most of all.
Counter-boring + shimming the liners is the correct way to set them to 0.014" height. Never machine down the block or head mating surfaces, the front gear train does not have any real allowances for this even if it was done right. I know of people who have been there and tried it already when trying to save etched block or head, the results were not good.
sounds like your trying to over-think it,.. perhps to get something better than what you have,. but really, the best thing to do is go back with all OEM parts + brand new head. -- built it right, hand torque everything. Do all the things recommended by this forum, as there have been hundreds of ppl on here that have already followed these paths and figured all this stuff out the hard way. - Set yourself up, and do all the things for building up it into a true million mile engine, nothing less.
* All OE on the internals/parts.
* ALWAYS counter-bore it and set liner height to 0.014" - 0.015" and within 0.001" error from front cylinder to back.
* The head procedure has steps to torque the head bolts to 300-ft.lbs,.. then to turn the bolts another 90-degrees. -- IT DOES NOT MENTION HOWEVER that a person needs to hand torque the head to the 300-ft.lbs just like the manual says to -- BUT LET IT SIT FOR 24-HRS, and RE-TORQUE IT AGAIN to 300-ft.lbs the next day (some guys report getting as much as another half turn out of the bolts sometimes),.. THEN, only after that second re-torque to 300, do you perform the final 90-degree turn on the bolts. -- Most shops do not let the head sit a day before applying that final 90-degree torque,.. this weakens the head-to-block connection, can lead to a weakened liner crush (fretting later on) or can contribute towards a crack in the head due to uneven pressures. - (call me picky but) I myself, also do the final 90-degree torque by hand instead of with an impact. This is because some of the bolts, you can feel they want to go a bit further than 90-degrees, especially the bolts that are under the cams.
* Shim the oil pump with 6 dimes(if it is the old style), or get the updated one that just came out by cummins that provides the higher pressures. -- 45-48~PSI is where you want to see it going down the road or when engine is cold.
* check and mic all the rod and main bearings as they come out + check their part#'s. They are removed,.. it is random what size bearings you need and it can be different from one cylinder to the next.
* check to ensure you put the right liner size back in it, it can randomly be either 150mm or 152mm liners.
and after---
* 1 gallion of 80/90 Gear lube at every oil change.
* Change oil at intervals based on fuel consumption, not miles.. - I noticed you said you change oil at 15,000 intervals, yet you asay your at 4 mpg,.. this is bad. At 4 mpg, you should be changing that oil every 8,000 miles. (ref at the bottom of this post: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=108&pid=617#pid617 ).
my engine re-build series is a treasure-trove of info on ISX and how to properly reman one...
-- Watch my engine re-build series, educate yourself, I talk a lot about this kind of stuff. There is a whole lot to building one of these engine the right way but it seems that too many people have lost this skill, or don't want to take the extra time of day for it, and it is a downright shame.
When one of these engines are built the right way, and all OE parts are used for the internals,.. they run, and they run well without any problems for years and years / million miles if cared for properly.