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RE: Re-build fried engine? - Nostalgic - 11-18-2021
(11-18-2021 )Chamberpains Wrote:(11-17-2021 )Nostalgic Wrote: That said, I looked close at my old 871 block that spun a main and rod and decided to scrap it. I'm in the beginning stages of building a new engine. Brand new block from Cummins and brand new crank from Cummins is the foundation. No machine shop work and reconditioned parts this time around.
Did you spin a bearing on the engine you rebuilt? Did I miss this update?
No, didn't spin a bearing (knock on wood lol), and no updates yet. I originally bought the truck with a junk seized engine that's been sitting in my loft waiting for me to decide it's fate. I seem to have some OCD issues and a vibration that I can only attribute to the base engine. Going way-way back in the build, you may remember that I had the block decked due to waviness on the surface, and used an aftermarket crank. Rear crank angle was on the outer edges of acceptability range, but at that time I already blew through my shoestring budget and didn't have many other options.
I just decided to start over with a clean slate, and when I was able to source a new block kit and crank at a decent price, I jumped. I'm going to up my 2732 cpl to a higher tier - thinking 2919 right now, but will get some input before I order pistons and injectors, and what I'll have to do concerning the turbo. Depending on what model year my truck turns into (I'm sure there are a lot of 90's-2003 Petes updated with 386 hoods, cabs, and frames, right? right? lol, the engine tag is going to be a CM570 or 870 and I can legally lose some unneeded weight.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - tree98 - 11-18-2021
Sounds like fun, keep us updated.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - Rawze - 11-19-2021
(11-18-2021 )Nostalgic Wrote: ...
up my 2732 cpl to a higher tier - thinking 2919 right now, but will get some input before I order pistons and injectors
...
that would require different...
* Pistons - (different compression ratio, lower crown in center of higher hp pistons)
* Injectors - (bigger chamber size to allow for faster fuel flow at the higher volumes into the cylinders )
* Injector cam - (completely different injector starting angle to accomodate the different injector profiles)
* Entire head is different- (bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* Valve cam - (matches up with the bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* VGT Turbo is also different - (Heavy-duty titanium, high heat turbine and higher flow housing)
====
The costs to convert one into a higher tier properly is just not worth it.
Not even if you REALLY needed that extra power for a super-heavy haul application with very high constant engine loads, because and especially not if your simply lookin' to pass someone up a hill or a bit of extra umph every once in a while. It is would far cheaper just to build it back the same tier and change the programming to give up a little bit of extra power ... and then learn to drive it so that your not torturing it in the higher power range for hours on end. A mid-tier built enigne with some extra HP (within reason) is what a lot of truck owners have.
Mid-tier builds are also much more fuel efficient than big-tier engines too (because of smaller turbo, smaller valves in head, higher compression ratio, etc.). over the engine's lifetime, this leads to tens of thousands in fuel cost differences alone as well.
The head is not listed here but some of the other part#'s are shown here: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2972&pid=25499#pid25499
One also has to consider that higher HP parts is NOT going to make the engine last any longer for the average truck owner unless it is done to dissipate excessive heat buildup .. in a heavy-haul application where it is tortured at 90+% engine loads for hours on end daily .. and if that is actually the case, the difference is likely negligible at best. The higher hp components from mid-tier to high tier are not "stronger"or "tougher" in any way. The component changes are to allow more thru-flow of overall heat to keep at bay, heavy-load application heat buildup is all.
Just putting this here for those who might read this thread in the future as some things to weigh heavily before thinking it is a simple matter to do something like that.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - Nostalgic - 11-20-2021
(11-19-2021 )Rawze Wrote:(11-18-2021 )Nostalgic Wrote: ...
up my 2732 cpl to a higher tier - thinking 2919 right now, but will get some input before I order pistons and injectors
...
that would require different...
* Pistons - (different compression ratio, lower crown in center of higher hp pistons)
* Injectors - (bigger chamber size to allow for faster fuel flow at the higher volumes into the cylinders )
* Injector cam - (completely different injector starting angle to accomodate the different injector profiles)
* Entire head is different- (bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* Valve cam - (matches up with the bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* VGT Turbo is also different - (Heavy-duty titanium, high heat turbine and higher flow housing)
====
Valve cam is the same - injector cam is different. Head shows the same # as well, but I'd be tempted to just go with a new head anyway. Other than 9k for new, not reman injectors, the turbo may sting a little if it's not something I could sort out with Yiyito. There's no valid need to justify any of it, just my want. No idea how much time I have left on this rock, or in a truck for that matter, so it's something I want to do while I'm able.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - Rawze - 11-20-2021
(11-20-2021 )Nostalgic Wrote:(11-19-2021 )Rawze Wrote:(11-18-2021 )Nostalgic Wrote: ...
up my 2732 cpl to a higher tier - thinking 2919 right now, but will get some input before I order pistons and injectors
...
that would require different...
* Pistons - (different compression ratio, lower crown in center of higher hp pistons)
* Injectors - (bigger chamber size to allow for faster fuel flow at the higher volumes into the cylinders )
* Injector cam - (completely different injector starting angle to accomodate the different injector profiles)
* Entire head is different- (bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* Valve cam - (matches up with the bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* VGT Turbo is also different - (Heavy-duty titanium, high heat turbine and higher flow housing)
====
Valve cam is the same - injector cam is different. Head shows the same # as well, but I'd be tempted to just go with a new head anyway. Other than 9k for new, not reman injectors, the turbo may sting a little if it's not something I could sort out with Yiyito. There's no valid need to justify any of it, just my want. No idea how much time I have left on this rock, or in a truck for that matter, so it's something I want to do while I'm able.
Here is what quickserv currently shows ...
CPL2732: (mid-tier CM871 engine)...
head: PP10238-04 (4962732 head, 4101454 exhaust valves)
valve cam: 4059331
injector cam: 3684306
injectors: 4954434
turbo: 3767615
pistons: 3684472
crank: 4925761
=========
CPL2919: ...
head: PP10238-04 (4962732 head, 4101454 exhaust valves)
valve cam: 4059331
injector cam: 4101432
injectors: 4088665
turbo: 4048098
pistons: 4923743
crank: 4925761
=========
CPL8081: (ISX- high performance 800Hp industrial/non-emissions engine) ...
head: PP8081-09 (4962732 head, 4101454 exhaust valves)
valve cam: 4059331
injector cam: 3100363
injectors: 4062569
turbo: 4025027 non-VGT HX-60 :or: a 4048098-VGT option
pistons: 4298992 (kit 4352288)
crank: 4925761
Here is also an overhaul kit cross-reference.
https://quickserve.cummins.com/service/english/attachments/isx_cpls_piston_overhaul_cross_ref.pdf
NOTE: Not installing the exact kit for your engine CPL and ser# voids all warranties. it also makes for the need of custom programming to correct for any hardware changes so that the engine will run 100% efficiently.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - amermextrucker - 11-20-2021
(11-19-2021 )Rawze Wrote:Rawze ,(11-18-2021 )Nostalgic Wrote: ...
up my 2732 cpl to a higher tier - thinking 2919 right now, but will get some input before I order pistons and injectors
...
that would require different...
* Pistons - (different compression ratio, lower crown in center of higher hp pistons)
* Injectors - (bigger chamber size to allow for faster fuel flow at the higher volumes into the cylinders )
* Injector cam - (completely different injector starting angle to accomodate the different injector profiles)
* Entire head is different- (bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* Valve cam - (matches up with the bigger exhaust valves in the head)
* VGT Turbo is also different - (Heavy-duty titanium, high heat turbine and higher flow housing)
====
The costs to convert one into a higher tier properly is just not worth it.
Not even if you REALLY needed that extra power for a super-heavy haul application with very high constant engine loads, because and especially not if your simply lookin' to pass someone up a hill or a bit of extra umph every once in a while. It is would far cheaper just to build it back the same tier and change the programming to give up a little bit of extra power ... and then learn to drive it so that your not torturing it in the higher power range for hours on end. A mid-tier built enigne with some extra HP (within reason) is what a lot of truck owners have.
Mid-tier builds are also much more fuel efficient than big-tier engines too (because of smaller turbo, smaller valves in head, higher compression ratio, etc.). over the engine's lifetime, this leads to tens of thousands in fuel cost differences alone as well.
The head is not listed here but some of the other part#'s are shown here: http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2972&pid=25499#pid25499
One also has to consider that higher HP parts is NOT going to make the engine last any longer for the average truck owner unless it is done to dissipate excessive heat buildup .. in a heavy-haul application where it is tortured at 90+% engine loads for hours on end daily .. and if that is actually the case, the difference is likely negligible at best. The higher hp components from mid-tier to high tier are not "stronger"or "tougher" in any way. The component changes are to allow more thru-flow of overall heat to keep at bay, heavy-load application heat buildup is all.
Just putting this here for those who might read this thread in the future as some things to weigh heavily before thinking it is a simple matter to do something like that.
Just out of curiosity whats the max & safest for a CM2350 CPL 3937? . Currently its at 450hp / 1750 Tq.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - Rawze - 11-20-2021
(11-20-2021 )amermextrucker Wrote: ...
Just out of curiosity whats the max & safest for a CM2350 CPL 3937? . Currently its at 450hp / 1750 Tq.
Depends all on how hard you work it and how long you want it to live.
Comes down to the fact that more torque output of just about any engine = more wear and less lifespan.
RE: Re-build fried engine? - Nostalgic - 11-20-2021
(11-20-2021 )Rawze Wrote: Here is what quickserv currently shows ...
CPL2732: (mid-tier CM871 engine)...
head: PP10238-04 (4962732 head, 4101454 exhaust valves)
valve cam: 4059331
injector cam: 3684306
injectors: 4954434
turbo: 3767615
pistons: 3684472
crank: 4925761
=========
CPL2919: ...
head: PP10238-04 (4962732 head, 4101454 exhaust valves)
valve cam: 4059331
injector cam: 4101432
injectors: 4088665
turbo: 4048098
pistons: 4923743
crank: 4925761
=========
CPL8081: (ISX- high performance 800Hp industrial/non-emissions engine) ...
head: PP8081-09 (4962732 head, 4101454 exhaust valves)
valve cam: 4059331
injector cam: 3100363
injectors: 4062569
turbo: 4025027 non-VGT HX-60 :or: a 4048098-VGT option
pistons: 4298992 (kit 4352288)
crank: 4925761
Here is also an overhaul kit cross-reference.
https://quickserve.cummins.com/service/english/attachments/isx_cpls_piston_overhaul_cross_ref.pdf
NOTE: Not installing the exact kit for your engine CPL and ser# voids all warranties. it also makes for the need of custom programming to correct for any hardware changes so that the engine will run 100% efficiently.
I was going to ask if you had any idea or if Yiyito would know what difference there is between the 4048098 and my 5457297 - if it's wheel size, comp outlet horn, or a different housing entirely? Odd that none of the superseded numbers for mine go back to a 3767615, but different truck and ESN would make sense to have a different turbo. I have a feeling I that mine wouldn't make enough airflow at big HP since right now >1800 RPM, my boost drops down to about 30 lbs with a 53 or 54 closing, and EGT's will start to rise if I stay in it long enough. Not sure where the closing rate/efficiency/ratio ideal line is, but wouldn't think going more closed would really help without just making higher exhaust pressures and cylinder heat - but then again, maybe my injectors are not able to push the fuel out fast enough? All of this is kind of silly, since every time you look at one of my files you mention that I don't run it hard, and the hot/rust line on my turbo is pretty much non-existent.
Also, might add that the oil cooler is different as well. 2919 is aluminum, vs 2732 Stainless.