Opinions on gliders

[Rig Wrench]

I feel like this subject has been beat to death somewhat. But oh well.
Its all preferance. Im building 2 more 389s right now with cat engines. There purpose built rigs for moving equipment. Much like Hammerhead on here does. Mileage, although important, probably is never gonna be too high. I also have all the components to build them, and do it in house myself. If I was hauling general frieght, 80k lb loads ect i would probly scout a used aero truck for the right price. And set it up like shown on this forum. I however do not know if new what i would buy. My 871 i thoroughly like, and has treated me well. But as metioned here. It takes quite alot of work and money to get a stock 2250 or 2350 to a reliable state. Fuel meleage aside

[Hammerhead]

Agreed on the subject beat to death Rig Wrench.
I am too young to run this truck to retirement, and reality really is an ungly b###h.
The time will come where replacement is unavoidable, and because of my torqueload demand I DO NOT know for sure what to do.
It's no secret that I have had tremendous success with DDEC S60's and am very fond of that motor. Simply put, like the 871 for Rawze, the S60 is the foundation of my success. Alas, reality is an ugly cruel b###h and reliable reman parts availability will become an issue.
I have actually discussed glider options with the two salesman I trust. Agreed Brock, never trust a salesman. These two know I won't tolerate bull$h!t, and they both actually use my knowledge to help them learn when they need to.
I have no where near got my motor as dialed in as Rawze could, but I finally feel like I have enough understanding of the 871 that it no longer intimidates me, and a 2919 CPL CM871 is the power plant of choice for my discussion purposes.
They are both quite surprised at my choice, and they are quite interested in my developments of understanding of this engine.
It has taken some time, lots of learning, and the sprouts of understanding, but I'm now at the point where if you held a gun to my head and said "decide right now"...I'm in Rawze's camp, and for the current perception of parts availability long term, I love my old shovelhead, but I replaced that motor with an evolution. I believe I would now do the same with an @m*m^2 871 over an S60.
As much as I hate this f**k!ng motor, it's now made a believer out of me.

[BiloxiDave]

Thanks for the great information! While I think the idea of a glider is great, I will just dismiss it at that, an idea.

[Magard]

I've had three s60 motors I'm over them. They were revolutionary in the mid 90s. Yellow and red past them up buy the late 90s. Common rail 2250 should have the most potential. Milk money that thing right off the get. Drive it nice be ready for liner issues. Fuel mileage will support these expenses in the long run. Not having some hacked glider with obsolete parts would be a positive. Every time there's a economic down turn these companies stop supporting the older stuff. A 450 isx will out pull a 500 s60 and be better on fuel. I just got tired of having a heavier engine with less power and no better fuel mileage than red and yellow back in the early 2000s.

[Running rough]

Aperently the austrailin cm2250 engines do not seem to have the liner issue of their epa North American cousins, but their 2250 has the shim under the liner from the factory and has a 17.1 compresion ratio, but they have injecter cup cracking issues, I was told thier most reliable isx is the original cm570 but I am asuming with the updated overhaul kits

[Rig Wrench]

If someone had the drivetrain parts already, I'd say go for it. At least if your in the heavy haul type work, where mpg isn't a main concern. The reman part problem is somewhat true, but many of the parts are used in brand new engines in other applications. The aftermarket has come a long way too. I agree the 2250 has a lot of mpg potential, but most don't want to deal with buying a truck, just to tear it down and fix counter bores, fuel pumps, mandate ect ect right out of the gate. That potentially ads a lot to the purchase price immediately.

[Texasdude74]

My recommendation on gliders is to stick with a Cat engine. Not out of any loyalty to Cat, but because of new parts availability and the 4 year unlimited mile/hour warranty. Most guys buy trucks on a 4-5 year note and the motor will be covered for most or all of that time. You can buy an extended 500k/12,500 hour warranty on the X15; but with aftertreatment, injector, fuel and water pump coverage it adds $16k to the price of the truck.

The S60 and N14 are just old and have all been rebuilt multiple times by now and the reman parts for them don't have a good reputation. Fitzgeralds in house Detroits are no more reliable than a 2350. Stay away.

Resale value is another big plus. Look at the 3-4 year old Cat powered non Fitzgerald gliders for sale on truck paper right now and compare them to a similar mileage and optioned ISX powered truck. The gliders are bringing a $25-30k premium because everyone knows what a 3-4 year old ISX is going to do. An extra $20-30k at resale literally would buy a couple tankers full of fuel at $2.30/gallon.

If you must enter the communist state, I'd rather be caught out there in a glider and pay the $500-700 fine than the horror stories we all hear of people with mandate removed trucks out there. Impounded trucks, multi thousand fines, thousands in shop bills to return to stock to get the truck back etc. I doubt the accuracy of these stories, but still.

As far as gliders being the old hag and emmision trucks being the hot, young thing. That's just silly.

[Waterloo]

Everything I am hearing in regards to Cat and parts availability is not that great. The OEM Cat parts from my understanding are worn out reman junk as Cat is no longer manufacturing new parts. I hear there are some aftermarket shops making some parts, but not everything. Not to insult you, just going by what I have heard here and on the street.

[Hammerhead]

Fuel mileage is always a concern, but yeah in HH work it's not the absolute priority it is for freight trucks.
My two main priorities are;
1)Reliability
This doesn't just mean liner issues. CEL's and derates when you're 14'w X 110'+ long and grossing around 180k are just unacceptable.
Most of the time permit routes take you off on two lane roads in random routes, so it's not just as simple as pull off the interstate at the next city and yard it into a stealership to have it checked out. Never mind that most of the time when these things derate, at those kind of weights you may not have the power to pull it up the off ramp to even get off the road. Now we're talking about becoming a very real hazard to the motoring public. Add to that, most wreckers double or even triple their rates when you are Superload category. And the cops or DOT don't really care, because that thing must be removed from the road before dark period. Because of this, IMHO HH trucks should have Emergency Vehicle status and should not derate power due to aftertreatment issues.
Now back to the liner issue...if the truck needs an inframe enroute, ugh. If the customer can't wait for the load, this is where the $h!t gets ugly.
Option 1-you rent a truck. Great. Except most rental fleets don't have trucks equipped very well to do the job. If the load is going to an easy delivery, not such a big deal. BUT, if the load is going to say Brule mine, here's the mine access procedure. Arrive at the gate, drop your jeep, flip the neck short, chain-up, pull the mine road to the shop so they can assemble the machine you're hauling. Doesn't sound too bad huh? Now I'll tell you what this means...your drives are packin 40k, and so are your jeep. But you've now dropped the jeep. Yup that's 80k on the drives! But we're not done yet. When you fold the neck back to short, you've removed 5' off the front of the trailer...in other words you've slid the drives back 5' closer to the load. On my trailer moving the load one foot moves 2000lbs. So now you actually have upwards of 90k on the drives. Why would you do this? Because the mine road has an 18% grade, with an overall average of 11% for 8km. If you spin out, you won't stop sliding backwards until you're a pretzel at the bottom. You sure you want to do this with a rental truck with 40k rearends?
Option 2-you repower the load. If this option is available it's probably the best. But now you have to trust someone else with your multimillion dollar load, on your several hundred thousand dollar trailer, NOT to f##k up.
Option 3-rent cranes to transfer the load to someone else's unit completely...this will cost more than than the load pays big time. This isn't really an option.

2)Heat retention/dissipation.
When you have the aerodynamics of a bulldozer with a top fueler's parachute brakes deployed, cause that's what your hauling, and you require 15-20lbs of boost to maintain 55mph on flat ground you are creating heat. I've said it before, as much as Rawze stresses aero for fuel mileage for freight trucks, I stress heat dissipation for HH trucks. IMHO they are of equal importance to each application. Heat retention in these motors is probably the biggest factor behind the soot. IMHO the turbo is too small and restrictive on the 2250/2350 for my type of work. I believe it will lead to issues, and if I got one of those motors I would probably go the route of swapping it for an 871 turbo and annoy Unilevers into helping me get it dialed in.

I agree Rig Wrench that buying a truck just to tear it down and fix counterbore, fuel pump, mandate, and such issues out of the gate definately makes a guy think twice. I do know that when I have looked at the used truck/ISX market, I actually am less interested in one that has had the proverbial inframe done...I'm not sure I trust too many shops quality anymore and I'd just as soon buy one for less money that needs to be done, and do it myself so I know what I've got. I have no faith in the new X15 at this point, so that's why I'm going to stick with what I've got, and keep an eye out and be ready for the right opportunity when it comes...but don't ask me what that is