Coolant in oil (Oil analysis)

[Hammerhead]

(05-27-2017 )Makmak Wrote:  I had made a decision to purchase this truck for a said price as long as the oil sample came back good or good as can be as the truck has 600k on second motor. Now, I am concerned. The owner is going to fix repair replace whatever it takes to solve this coolant in oil issue. So I am trying to be proactive and find out myself what the issue can be. The truck is at a shop and they are trying to troubleshoot it.

If you don't yet own this unit, I would highly recommend that an overnight pressure test with the pan removed to eliminate head/gasket/liner issues be performed. It is at the point mileage wise where these issues will begin to show up, and you don't want to be left "holding the bag" requiring an inframe in a couple of months.

edit: Your signature says 450hp, so I'd suggest that head/gasket/liner issues are less likely than a high hp version and I'd still bet on the EGR cooler, but a potential $35k risk vs an overnight cooling system pressure test is a pretty good self assurance policy

[Makmak]

(05-27-2017 )Hammerhead Wrote:  

(05-27-2017 )Makmak Wrote:  I had made a decision to purchase this truck for a said price as long as the oil sample came back good or good as can be as the truck has 600k on second motor. Now, I am concerned. The owner is going to fix repair replace whatever it takes to solve this coolant in oil issue. So I am trying to be proactive and find out myself what the issue can be. The truck is at a shop and they are trying to troubleshoot it.

If you don't yet own this unit, I would highly recommend that an overnight pressure test with the pan removed to eliminate head/gasket/liner issues be performed. It is at the point mileage wise where these issues will begin to show up, and you don't want to be left "holding the bag" requiring an inframe in a couple of months.

edit: Your signature says 450hp, so I'd suggest that head/gasket/liner issues are less likely than a high hp version and I'd still bet on the EGR cooler, but a potential $35k risk vs an overnight cooling system pressure test is a pretty good self assurance policy

I have forwarded these recommendations to the truck owner and i highly suggested to forward these to his mechanic. So Ive been told that this is what they are doing now.... and I will post back as soon as I find out something. Hopefully we can get a little more feedback as to what other members might believe it to be. Do you see anything else in the oil analysis that raises a red flag?

[Hammerhead]

Here is a comparison of your sample to my last one,
  Book.pdf (Size: 121.62 KB / Downloads: 248) I see a few things that concern me but they are possible side effects of the coolant contamination. I see 18000 as the "Meter on Fluid" and assume Toromont being Canadian, that this is km's. Mine is 13000km's, and a 19000km sample is almost identical.
Lead, copper, iron, magnesium, & moly are all a fair amount higher than my sample. These are wear metals, and this would concern me. I'd definitely do a valve cover removal and personal inspection of the cams and rocker assy's.
Copper is bearings. Iron, magnesium, & moly are ingredients in high tech composite metals used in modern engines to make lightweight strong alloys.
I have suspicions that something is not right in this engine, and since you are negotiating to purchase this unit I will not lie to you. I am concerned.

From this point;
1)Rocker cover removal, personal inspection only.
2)Cooling system overnight pressure test with oil pan and stiffener plate removed. Personally inspection only in the morning!
3)Remove and inspect at least one rod bearing and crank journal, personally.
4)Remove and inspect at least one main bearing and crank, personally.
5)A complete ECM download, and analysis from a third non-related party.
6)None of the above negotiable. Not agreed to, I walk away.

Sorry if this seems overkill or brutal. I don't know you, and I don't know the seller, so I have no dog in the fight, just looking out for someone willing to ask the hard questions. If this was my truck, and you were looking to purchase, and you brought me this Sample and legitimate concern, I'd help you disassemble and inspect.

[Makmak]

Because I am currently on the road to Alberta and then onto BC, I can't be home to personally verify all the recommendations you have given but I made it very clear to the owner that I wanted all procedures performed and kept updated as to the progress. I have also asked for a complete ECM download. I am awaiting a progress update and the ECM download. I may ask for clear photographs of certain elements of the engines wear items that you've mentioned, bearings etc. Not being there in person throughout these inspections that are going on right now bites! All I know is NO sale will take place until I am 100% satisfied

[Makmak]

UPDATE:
Had 3 mechanics do the trouble shooting on this. This is what they say. The reason behind the coolant in the oil is potassium in engine.   This is from the fuel injector cups.    They need replacement.   The cost alone for that is $7000 (CAN)

[Makmak]

The owner wants to lower the price of the truck by $5000 and I take it to my mechanic of choice to have all injector cups replaced. I'm not liking this deal !!!

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

[Hammerhead]

(05-31-2017 )Makmak Wrote:  The owner wants to lower the price of the truck by $5000 and I take it to my mechanic of choice to have all injector cups replaced. I'm not liking this deal !!!

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Suggestion, for only a CA$5,000.00 reduction because of this finding; Walk Away!

I wouldn't replace the injector cups, I'd just replace the head. A while back Unilevers mentioned something about the cups being "finicky" to replace and few places actually get it right. Also, with the mileage you stated on that engine the head is due for replacement anyhow.
If the injector cups have been leaking for a while chances are some of, or all the liners will be glazed st worst, or service life shortened at very best. Depending on the quantity and duration of coolant intrusion, I would expect this will have a very high likelihood of ending up being a complete inframe.

If this becomes an inframe, and you are still interested in purchasing the truck, be adamant that the liner protrusion is set at 0.014" and that the head torquing procedure be "torque head bolts to 300 ft/lbs following procedure pattern, WAIT 24hrs THEN RE-TORQUE TO 300 ft/lbs, and then plus additional 90* rotation on head bolts." This will ensure that you should not have liner issues with that motor. If they won't agree to do it this way, then I'd be skeptical of the job.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Makmak]

At a $5000 reduction of the price of the truck is out of the question. I would consider doing the deal if it was a $10,000 price reduction and I would put that $10,000 towards an inframe.
An update will follow. Stay tuned

[Rawze]

If the head is worn out enough for the injector cups to be leaking,.. the head is worn out!. Even replacing them you are on borrowed time with it.

You never mentioned if it was geared right for your application,.. you never mentioned the fact that it is a Volvo and inherently less fuel efficient than other brands,.. and you never mentioned what your going to use the truck for.


If it is that good of a deal and you hell bent on lower fuel economy and a truck that may not be geared or suited to your needs,.. you could always take the offered discount and zero-pressure the coolant system (with regular coolant, a small condenser, and a catch tank reservoir) and run it till it is blowing oil like a freight train. Maybe get another 100-150k or so out of it and save up for making it into something worth having after inframing it in a year or so. Just remember though,,.. trucks that are already profitable and making good money do not get sold.