Another oil pressure thread

[Peashooter67]

(11-15-2018 )Rawze Wrote:  I think its 0.002" - 0.005", not sure these days.

Also, has anyone checked the rockers + rocker shafts and injector rockers + injector shafts? to make sure they are all in spec? -- excess clearances there will cause low oil pressure too.

Could also be a engine brake solenoid hemoraging oil badly too.

Just some more thoughts on it. Hopefully it will be something stupid simple that god missed during the inframe.

For all you know, there may be a bearing missing int the new head somewhere. Seen that too.

Just installed all new rockers and both shafts to the tune of $4,400 and did not fix the issue

[Peashooter67]

I know the engine break was next to non existent on drive home , but can be attributed to the low pressure anyways.
After we plastigauge the rods and mains the ebreak o-rings will be looked at next for sure.

[snailexpress]

(11-15-2018 )Peashooter67 Wrote:  I know the engine break was neat non existent on drive home.
After we plastigauge the rods and mains the ebreak o-rings will be looked at next for sure.

Top should be checked first before spending time and money on more serious checks. Just open valve cover and run engine until pressure drops. Watch oil flow around camshaft and eb solenoids.

[Peashooter67]

(11-15-2018 )snailexpress Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 )Peashooter67 Wrote:  I know the engine break was neat non existent on drive home.
After we plastigauge the rods and mains the ebreak o-rings will be looked at next for sure.

Top should be checked first before spending time and money on more serious checks. Just open valve cover and run engine until pressure drops. Watch oil flow around camshaft and eb solenoids.

Head has been replaced so has the rocker shafts and all rockers. Because of the 8 psi after oil filter only center to or three cam bearings are getting good oil front not nearly any and rear a little more than front. First head was the same.
Measurement of cam shows good and cam bearings are also goood. Both the previous head and this head that is on there now same results.

Btw: already been there done that. I may be ignorant of some things but I’m not stupid either.
After I exhausted all avenues up top and outside did I opened the bottom end.

I’ve been driving and maintaining these motors for 25 years and been building motors for 33 years. I don’t pretend to know everything and have forgot a lot over the years as well.

I have not ever worked on an isx till about a year ago and sought out some guidance here as I have never had this problem with any motor unless there was a spun rod or main bearing. In this cas best I can tell there are no spun bearings at all.

[Peashooter67]

Waiting for plastigauge results.
When I get bottom end closed back up and the motor back together I will block off Oil passage to engin breaks and see if pressure come up any assuming the plastigauge comes out good.

[Peashooter67]

(11-15-2018 )snailexpress Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 )Peashooter67 Wrote:  I know the engine break was neat non existent on drive home.
After we plastigauge the rods and mains the ebreak o-rings will be looked at next for sure.

Top should be checked first before spending time and money on more serious checks. Just open valve cover and run engine until pressure drops. Watch oil flow around camshaft and eb solenoids.

Head has been replaced so has the rocker shafts and all rockers.

[snailexpress]

(11-15-2018 )Peashooter67 Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 )snailexpress Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 )Peashooter67 Wrote:  I know the engine break was neat non existent on drive home.
After we plastigauge the rods and mains the ebreak o-rings will be looked at next for sure.

Top should be checked first before spending time and money on more serious checks. Just open valve cover and run engine until pressure drops. Watch oil flow around camshaft and eb solenoids.

Head has been replaced so has the rocker shafts and all rockers.

New head installed doesn't make any sense to me. Why? I have it on my engine done. Done by someone who did it wrong. After 5K miles look at this picture.         
BTW the oil pressure wasn't so low(probably 25psi) but went down in few days what was enough to alarm me and open the valve cover for inspection.
And once again, did you check the oil passages for << quote from another forum >>
This is an extreme important warning for everyone using Fleetguard LF9070 oil filters on ISX engines. We are finding the inner o-ring is either getting cut during installation or failing sometime thereafter. Pieces of the o-ring are getting pushed further into the engine oil galleries, commonly in the oil riffle that feeds the pistons cooling nozzles. The o-ring pieces are partially or fully blocking oil flow, or disturbing the spray direction causing piston overheating and eventually liner scoring and then failure requiring overhaul. This issue was brought to our attention from one of our own customers back at the end of the summer. This customer does his own services and had a piston failure. When we rebuilt the engine we removed the piston cooling nozzle to check it and that was when we found the chunk of oring stuck right in it. The customer still had the old filter and sure enough a chuck of the inner sealing oring was missing. We have our eye out for this. So far we have found 3 other ISX engines that have pieces of the inner oring missing when doing an oil change. These are our customers and we did the services! All three had the oil pan taken off and piston cooling nozzles taken out, and all three did indeed have pieces of oring in the nozzle feed oil gallery. We have taken this up with management, and so far we are being stonewalled for any information or help. Cummins says it is either an installing problem or a manufacturing defect. Fleetguard is saying nothing is wrong with their product and the oil filter is being installed wrong, or the oil filter headers on these engines is wrong somehow, typical! I really don't think we are all installing oil filters wrong. We are thinking the oring is too soft, or not properly secured on the inside of the filter below the threads. When removing one of these filters, simply look inside and make sure the whole oring is still there!!! If not, you have to pull the pan and remove all the piston cooling nozzles. The orings are hard to see because everything is black with oil. We have also been successful in using MIG wire to reach up into the gallery and actually push a piece that was in between nozzles to the next hole and grab it. We have been letting our customers know.

[Rawze]

(11-15-2018 )snailexpress Wrote:  ...
Done by someone who did it wrong. After 5K miles look at this picture.
...

I have seen this issue with new heads quite a few times. I mention it in detail at 4:25 in this video...
https://youtu.be/NxvwVySjxOM

(11-15-2018 )snailexpress Wrote:  ...
This is an extreme important warning for everyone using Fleetguard LF9070 oil filters on ISX engines....

That is a very good point. Mostly it is a baldwin/aftermarket filter issue though. I commented on this here...
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...4#pid25854

[Peashooter67]

(11-15-2018 )snailexpress Wrote:  New head installed doesn't make any sense to me. Why? I have it on my engine done. Done by someone who did it wrong. After 5K miles look at this picture.
BTW the oil pressure wasn't so low(probably 25psi) but went down in few days what was enough to alarm me and open the valve cover for inspection.
And once again, did you check the oil passages for << quote from another forum >>
This is an extreme important warning for everyone using Fleetguard LF9070 oil filters on ISX engines. We are finding the inner o-ring is either getting cut during installation or failing sometime thereafter. Pieces of the o-ring are getting pushed further into the engine oil galleries, commonly in the oil riffle that feeds the pistons cooling nozzles. The o-ring pieces are partially or fully blocking oil flow, or disturbing the spray direction causing piston overheating and eventually liner scoring and then failure requiring overhaul. This issue was brought to our attention from one of our own customers back at the end of the summer. This customer does his own services and had a piston failure. When we rebuilt the engine we removed the piston cooling nozzle to check it and that was when we found the chunk of oring stuck right in it. The customer still had the old filter and sure enough a chuck of the inner sealing oring was missing. We have our eye out for this. So far we have found 3 other ISX engines that have pieces of the inner oring missing when doing an oil change. These are our customers and we did the services! All three had the oil pan taken off and piston cooling nozzles taken out, and all three did indeed have pieces of oring in the nozzle feed oil gallery. We have taken this up with management, and so far we are being stonewalled for any information or help. Cummins says it is either an installing problem or a manufacturing defect. Fleetguard is saying nothing is wrong with their product and the oil filter is being installed wrong, or the oil filter headers on these engines is wrong somehow, typical! I really don't think we are all installing oil filters wrong. We are thinking the oring is too soft, or not properly secured on the inside of the filter below the threads. When removing one of these filters, simply look inside and make sure the whole oring is still there!!! If not, you have to pull the pan and remove all the piston cooling nozzles. The orings are hard to see because everything is black with oil. We have also been successful in using MIG wire to reach up into the gallery and actually push a piece that was in between nozzles to the next hole and grab it. We have been letting our customers know.

I have to get oil pressure first................
Post oil filter is 8psi I wish I could get 25. The head that came on it and now a new head to rule out the head. New shafts to rule out the shafts and all new rockers to remove any doubt that there a problem with the head it’s self.

This is what I know so far.
The head, cams, cam bearings, rockers,oil pickup tube and o-ring, oil pump, oil pump regulator, oil pump shims,filter bypass valve, are all new.

We are as time permits going to plastigauge the main and rod bearings. Then check the engine breaks for pressure leakage.
All the nozzles have been removed ,checked and oil galleys as we have moved through this engine.
Is that to say that there isn’t a piece of rubber or othe contaminate in there somewhere? No .
So far every test and or subsequent change has yielded no gain in pressure and no bad/spun bearings have been found.

It’s bleeding pressure somewhere and has only ran once’s with the current head on it. The head that was removed and replaced had 289 miles on with same pressure. Because of Rawze, his suggestion with explanation, I’m plastigauging main and rod bearings.
His theory and explanations made since and fit the symptoms.
The motor acts like it has a spun bearing but with out one so far.

My point of the other head is that there was no damage to the head and after replacement the oil pressure remained the same. It would be great if I had a blocked spray nozzle and the knowledge of them becoming blocked from oil filter seals are nice to know but isn’t currently relative to my situation as the head has no spun bearings.
Ibsay this, I have yet to pull the idler gear for a inspection to see if it has a spun bearing but that’s on my to do list.

I may just be rinse and missing something here.