Navistar Settlement

[vewdew1]

Hi guys,

I was just curious what everyone's take is on the recent Navistar settlement with the EPA. I own a 2010 ProStar with an ISX that is pre-DEF, which is apparently the subject at issue. They were actually built in early 2010 but sold as 2009 model engines to skirt around the new emissions certifications. As I understand it, the settlement requires Navistar to buy back and destroy a certain number of these engines. Just curious if I'll be able to get me a new engine out of this deal. lol

[tree98]

I believe that involved the maxforce engines not the ISX.

[JimT]

(12-15-2021 )tree98 Wrote:  I believe that involved the maxforce engines not the ISX.

I too thought it included Cummins engines, but have not found mention of ANY manufacturer other than Navistar. However, it seems that they are free to purchase and destroy ANY heavy duty diesel engine manufactured prior to 2010 to meet their agreed quota. So I suspect they will target the oldest (and cheapest) vehicles/engines they can find. I assume they will also use this as an incentive to sell new trucks to owners of older units, which is probably still a net positive for the company.

Justice.gov Settlement Info

EPA Settlement Info (more detail)

[Rawze]

I own a 2011 model that is DPF only, from the truck maker. It supposedly fell under the "EPA credits" system, where there were a certain number of them that were allowed to be built that way and exist, to meet the market demands at the time.

I have no official references to this statement, that is simply what I was told when I purchased the truck brand new, and asked about it.

It has a CM871 in a 2011 Prostar, right from navistar. The emissions systems match the engine, and the engine's year of manufacturer, rather then the truck manufacturing date. I suppose its technically a factory "glider"?.

[amermextrucker]

well ill say this , we are sure paying for that crapforce engine in high parts prices. Im sure they will get even pricier with this outcome.

[DVT873]

This almost certainly the MaxxForce 13L engines only. I have heard this "when the crank is put in the block that is the build date of the engine" for a long time. Never made a lot of sense. Thinking about it I may have only ever heard Navistar say this.

If this is the route EPA is taking then NAV has exposure with their medium duty engines as well. I am most familiar with those. See it around the 2007 and 2010 EPA breaks. i.e you will find EPA 07 engines in model year 2011 trucks built in calendar year 2010 using an engine "built" in 2009. Model year, the year that is on your title, has been running a full year ahead of calendar year for decades. Look at the build date on your VIN tag then look at your title.

The cynical think this is for the benefit of the big fleets, rental and leasing companies. If you are say Ryder and you get your "2010" trucks in the first part of 2009 you can run them for five years and sell them in 2015. As 5 year old trucks. But you have actually had it in service for 5 and a half, close to six years. Those extra months add up over thousands of trucks.

The offset is what went on in Ca. years ago and may still be happening. Union 76 among others were buying up cars from the 60's, 70's, 80's and destroying them. For this they got pollution credits they used to offset pollution from sources of their own that they could not or did not want to spend the money to control.

[DVT873]

(12-15-2021 )Rawze Wrote:  I own a 2011 model that is DPF only, from the truck maker. It supposedly fell under the "EPA credits" system, where there were a certain number of them that were allowed to be built that way and exist, to meet the market demands at the time.

I have no official references to this statement, that is simply what I was told when I purchased the truck brand new, and asked about it.

It has a CM871 in a 2011 Prostar, right from navistar. The emissions systems match the engine, and the engine's year of manufacturer, rather then the truck manufacturing date. I suppose its technically a factory "glider"?.

What is the build date on the engine?

[Rawze]

(12-16-2021 )DVT873 Wrote:  What is the build date on the engine?

The build date is aug-2009. It is also a CPL2732. All of the CPL2732's are supposedly factory-converted, left-over CM870 block and tackle components, with the CM871 electronics/egr, etc. hanging off the side of it. At least that is what was said to me when I tried to order the internals back in the day. - I even had to order a CM870 overhaul kit for it (based on my engine ser#) or they would not warranty the new parts, back when I made my video re-build series on it.

It is genuinely a CM871... with all the CM871 stuffs on it. Only that the head, block, and pistons/liners. etc.. are all for a CM870 internally. Came this way from factory, parts matched up, part#s and all for it when it came apart vs. the CM870 overhaul kit they told me to get. Go figure that one out, eh?

CPL2733's.. They are supposed to have the newer CM871-specific stuffs in them though. Same tier enignes, same HP, etc, but different, more up to date internals.

It gets messy when you really dig deep enough on these engines, as far as how they are built, what parts are re-used off older models that are still on the shelves at the manufacturer, what changes internally they might have done as they go down the assembly line to get it right, such as unpredictable using alternate bearing sizes or different liners, etc., and all sorts of other "behind the scenes" things I suppose.

As more and more time passes, more of this information gets lost... and you end up with a mess when someone tries to rebuild their engine. Some of these quirks, if missed, can be the difference on an engine rebuild that goes right.. or horrible wrong. Without knowing all the back-stories and the things to look out for when tearing into one, it can become a nightmare for the occasional truck owner because they, or most of the time, some under-trained shop does not catch these things as it goes back together. None of this much is in the manuals or on quickserv to check or keep after. This is one of the issues... the instructions are incomplete, and vague,,.. It don't tell you that pretty much, the only way to extend the engine's life, you have to counter-bore it and raise the liners above "factory new" settings to get it to last another million+ miles the second time around.. even if it looks great inside. It don't tell you that you should let the head gasket settle over night before pulling the final 90+ on the bolts, and to rte-torque the head again the next day.. No mention of the possibility of different bearing sizes form one cylinder to the next unpredictably, etc. - All these things are missing from the books and instructions,.. etc.

Because of these discrepancies, a lot of mechanics make mistakes on these engines and the truck owners have problems for it... all while the typical shop will argue with you and say "it don't call for this in the procedures" and tell you that your full of s#it.

[RollinCoal]

(back to the original subject)...
Yeah there was a BIG stink at Ryder of these engine (maxxforce) They finally came to an agreement if they where in this certain mileage they would buy them back.
Think out of 400 we got stuck with 20 or so,
But now there buying the new A26's which are another pile