ISX and Bypass Oil Filter Systems

[Rawze]

Are Bypass Oil systems (Like ops/Gulf coast/Amsoil/Etc.) Good for the ISX CM871?,...

Opinion: For filtration--YES,...For extended oil drains---NO!

I agree with Cummins that extended oil changes are not so good for the engine to some extent. Most bypass oil systems for these type of engines are sold with the promise of spending less money on oil changes. While I agree that extra filtering is very good for these engines, and feel that it is absolutely necessary for any EGR engine, the extended oil change claims, I do not agree with.

My own truck even has a bypass oil filter on it. I installed a less expensive $350 Amsoil bypass system to help combat the soot that was constantly getting into my oil. If your running an engine with EGR, then by all means, any system designed to lower soot levels in your oil will help the motor by a large amount. What I do not agree with, is extended oil changes.

Not changing the oil for 100k+ miles presents some serious risks to the engine in my, and from what I have read, Cummins's opinion, best I can tell. Without regular draining intervals of the oil, sediment will easily collect in places in the engine like the ends of cross-drillings and the bottom of the motor/oil pan. Over time, combined with heat from operation, this sediment/additive settling will separate from the oil and harden, creating the potential for lots of secondary problems. The second problem, is that after 20,000 miles,.. 30,00 miles, 50,00 miles,..etc etc. -- The suspended wear metals in the oil will keep building up higher and higher. The argument of the bypass oil guys is that it is harmless, and the particles are tiny, but in fact it is actually harmful. Having lots and lots of tiny iron and other wear metals suspended in your oil for long periods of time can and will take its toll on components.

Regular oil changes keeps wear metals at bay. It cannot be a good thing to have higher than normal amounts of iron, chromium, and all the other wear metals, compared to the amount you typically see in a 12,000 mile oil sample. Extended oil changes results in typically 3-5x higher than normal suspended wear metals in the oil on a constant basis. There is no convincing me that this is good at all. I base a lot of this on the fact that I used to work heavily with OEM high precision hydraulic systems. I have seen many companies try to do synthetic+ extended oil change intervals on hydraulic systems in this same way. A lot of these same bypass system oil pushers try to market the industrial machinery sector too. When I was on the OEM side of this fence, I could see a very clear pattern. It always resulted in premature component failures, and the average warranty claims were higher by about 1/3 more. Fortunately for engines, they are much more forgiving in the abuse they can take, but this brainwashed marketing hype gives no excuse to such unnecessary torture to them.


Most all of these same companies/sales people will push you to use synthetic oil in the engine to boot. Synthetic oil is great stuff, but in the ISX, There are countless cases of overhead cam failures/pre-mature wear problems that have been blamed as an after-effect of extended changes + synthetic oil in these motors, especially when combined with Lucas. The engine was designed to be used with high zinc oils like Shell Rotella-T or Delo-400. I have also had many engine mechanics say that they see a much higher rate of pre-mature cam failure in engines with synthetic, even when overhead adjustments are done regularly. There is no hard evidence for these claims at all, and I am not convinced this is actually the case, so I can only rely on my own experiences when it comes to synthetic/extended oil drain intervals when referring to only the engine.

I myself tried to run my engine with extended oil changes and synthetic, and I could tell the engine did not like it after 30k + miles on the same oil. The engine ran noisier, especially under heavy torque, even with a good bypass system. The sound difference was subtle, but I could hear and feel a distinct difference while driving my truck. I tried to narrow it down, but couldn't. I changed filters, replaced a couple gallons of oil, and even did extensive oil sampling via a lab, but found nothing that could explain the change in sound.


Many truck owners who pay attention to the sound of their engine can say this same thing...

"When the engine gets a fresh oil change, you can just hear the difference right away. It is much quieter and smoother sounding..."

Somehow though, changing the oil Always quieted my engine again. Then, after about 20,000 miles or so, that "rougher" sound would always start to come back again. I never could solve this, and have had many people try to tell me it was just me, but dammit!!! Its MY truck!, I drive it all day, every day, and I can tell when something isn't quite right. I have a damn good ear for it, and can even hear when the oil needs changing from laying in the bunk in the back, while the wife drives. I know that change in sound, subtle as it may be, that only fresh oil can cure. Call me a crack pot on this particular one, but I am not going to play with this,...Not on my truck any-ways, so I gave up trying to figure it out.

A truck running very well combined with good custom tuning can easily keep the oil much cleaner all on its own. This can be so much so, that the oil does not really even turn dark any more. I have seen many trucks that the oil stays the same color as the bottle (light yellow) for at much as 15,000 miles or more. this is possible and repeatable, but not without some serious work and tuning to ensure everything is at its peak performance. No amount of bypass filters can make up for this.

In the past, I have always changed the oil in my vehicles when it darkened to about 50% of its original color. I have always done this for every vehicle I have owned since back in the 80's when I got my first car. When I purchased my truck (it was brand new), I could change the oil and it would be black as soon as it cranked up. I absolutely hated this, and set out to solve it by various methods including bypass oil filters.

One of the biggest problem was soot getting into the oil all the time. I tried to purchase a gulf-coast filter system, but there was no where on my truck for it to mount easily. I also looked into a few other brands, and ended up getting one of the cheaper Amsoil filter systems. Even this less expensive system dropped my soot levels tremendously. My soot ratings from sampling went from 2.4-2.8 every 25k miles to 0.54. The bypass filter certainly knocked the soot out of my motor, so yes, it helped a ton, but it did not keep my oil from looking black in color all the time. It was a lot of fine tuning. etc. that did that.

I have been running Shell Rotella-T in my motor now for 960,000+ miles now, and when I ran my overhead at 890k miles, there was not much wear on my overhead cams at all. Many of the lobes are just starting change color, some not even showing signs of polishing yet. Because of this,...the oil I am using works just fine for me, and I am not about to waste money on synthetic, just to dump it out after 30k miles. I do use a gallon of good gear lube in my oil at every oil change to help lower turbo temps and thicken the oil slightly. I do this to raise the hydraulic pressure rating of the oil, and take up any excess gap between the components due to the age of the engine. I use no other oil additives in my engine, and I do not believe Lucas is good for my motor because it dilutes the engine oils already precious additives. At least some gear oil has additives, unlike Lucas.


For those blind optimists reading this who think there is no engine life penalty associated with extended oil change intervals, the best data available disagrees strongly. In a study performed by the Cummins Inc., where 9 engine power tests were performed on engines which had different oil change intervals of 12,000 and 25,000 miles. Diesel road tractor engines have very large sump capacities, and their oil change intervals are naturally longer than for other consumer vehicles, so optimum intervals needed to be tested. Here are their results...



Figure 1 - Engine Power Loss as a Function of Oil Change Interval

Figure 1 graphically illustrates how after 300,000 miles with regular 12,000-mile oil changes there is a small 2% average across the board power lost due to wear. Also the overall parasitic friction loss is lower, which raises the available power at high rpms. On the other hand, When the oil change interval was only done at 25,000 miles, even at a lower total accumulated mileage of 250,000, the power loss at all engine speeds due to engine wear is dramatically higher, averaging over 10%!. This means there roughly, is a 10% loss in power due to wear alone over time simply because of not changing your oil often enough, especially as the engine gets older. Cummins themselves, clearly show that their recommendation to change the oil every 25,000 miles CAUSES MORE THAN NORMAL WEAR!.

Do the right thing,.. change your oil based on your fuel consumption instead of regular mileage intervals.

Here is what I would recommend to others based on what I have seen..

If your average fuel mileage every 10,000 miles is ...

less than 5 MG -- Change your oil every 8,000 miles or so.

5 - 6 MPG -- Change your oil every 10,000 - 12,000 miles or so.

6 - 7 MPG -- Change your oil every 12,000 - 15,000 miles or so.

7 - 8 MPG -- Change your oil every 15,000 - 18,000 miles or so.

8 - 9 MPG -- Change your oil every 18,000 - 22,000 miles or so.

above 9 MPG -- Change your oil every 22,000 - 28,000 miles or so.

These recommendations are based on more than just engine wear alone. They are based on getting the most engine life vs the cost of oil changes themselves, and the fact that soot and other deposits are going to keep building up in your engine more rapidly than you can flush them out. A bypass oil filter system can extend this, but not by the claims they are making. You would be good to get an extra 8,000 - 10,000 miles on your oil before having to change it anyways. That is my experience on it, and is what I tell others that ask about these types of systems, etc.

Maybe this article helps others out there, your own experiences may differ. this is just what I see when taking a hard look at it. -- Rawze

Tags:

bypass filter, oil filter, soot problems, bypass system, oil change interval, amsoil filter, power loss, filter clogging, oil change interval, oil change, extended oil change

[Kevin7898]

You bring up several very good points. however anyone that does extended drains, without pulling an oil sample every 15k miles is stupid and asking for everything you brought up. There is absolutely 0 reason to dump good oil out if the sample comes back from a reputable lab clean. Besides every owner should run samples anyways regardless of if you are running extended drain intervals or not. Could save you a motor if you have an injector go and you are washing your cylinders and bearing with excess fuel.Samples will also tell you if your head gasket or other gaskets are going long before you see visual signs in the oil. It will also tell you how much of those minute particles are in your oil, letting you know if you have premature wear. Darn good insurance if you ask me, and for 25-50 bucks you can't go wrong, only save money. Cummins, cat etc are both great labs with a few other aftermarket companies, Polaris and black stone being two that I have used.

[t700]

Thanks for the info.
I am leaning toward the Amsoil bypass as it is easy to get the spin on filters and hopefully
not make a mess changing them.

Did you loose any oil pressure after installation?
Where did you get the oil pressure hoses to hook it up?
How hard is the installation?

Thanks again for the Help

[Rawze]

(03-01-2016 )Kevin7898 Wrote:  You bring up several very good points. however anyone that does extended drains, without pulling an oil sample every 15k miles is stupid and asking for everything you brought up. There is absolutely 0 reason to dump good oil out if the sample comes back from a reputable lab clean. Besides every owner should run samples anyways regardless of if you are running extended drain intervals or not. Could save you a motor if you have an injector go and you are washing your cylinders and bearing with excess fuel.Samples will also tell you if your head gasket or other gaskets are going long before you see visual signs in the oil. It will also tell you how much of those minute particles are in your oil, letting you know if you have premature wear. Darn good insurance if you ask me, and for 25-50 bucks you can't go wrong, only save money. Cummins, cat etc are both great labs with a few other aftermarket companies, Polaris and black stone being two that I have used.

Not trying to convince people against other ideas or views, I can only go by what I have seen so far, so I will elaborate why I feel the way I do on this subject...

I lost faith in oil analysis to tell when to change your oil many years ago. Every single company that was trying to extend oil drains and replacement that had premature warranty claims was doing just that. They were relying on sampling to tell them that their oil was perfect all the time,.. only it was not. The problem is that oil analysis cannot detect separation very well, and that is exactly what was happening.

Sampling regularly is great for detecting problems, but that is where it stops. There is a big difference between having 120 PPM iron in your sample, then flushing it out,.. and between having 600 PPM iron in it because you had your so-called "perfectly good" oil in there for more than 60k miles. More PPM is more PPM! -- PERIOD! and if you put it in perspective, 12k miles, peaking 120 PPM = 120ppm in 12k miles. Extended oil changes and sampling would dictate 120ppm in 12k miles, 120-240 ppm in the oil at all times, running around in your engine the next 12k miles, 240,480 ppm at all times in the next 12k miles, and on and on and on until you changed it.

Next, is the fact that I have had at least 10 or so truck owners who have come here with high-end lab results from expensive places with oil samples that didn't detect this kind of thing at all... Here are some pics of the inside of trucks that actually had good sample results from the more high-end labs...



and it didn't detect this...



or this.,..




=============

I have actually found it more accurate to look on the inside of your engine covers and crank case covers to detect a very slow process coolant intrusion than it is to get a lab sample most of the time. Unless it is a measurable coolant loss, the sample will not see it very well.

People can disagree with this, I am fine with that. This is just my own experience with it so far. Try showing an oil sample record to a German hydraulics company for a $15,000 valve that just failed and they will laugh at you and ask you where the separation report is, denying your warranty claim all day long. Show them the receipts and records where you changed the oil at regular recommended intervals, and they will give you a new valve no questions asked. Try to take them to court on the claim, and they will slap you with a report in return showing an increase of 30% failures due to extended oil changes + sampling instead. -- This is what I saw first hand in the past, and when I was called in to eval. a failure of that specific valve, out of roughly 400 premature failures, only one had failed prematurely with regular oil and regular oil changes. All the rest were either extended oil changes and sample reports, or synthetic + sample reports and extended changes. This is simply what happened, your welcome to speculate on it all you want to. The german company also informed me that it was only in the USA/Brittan where they were having such premature failures, and that it centered around the oil sampling, synthetic oils, and extended change intervals. People who owned their machinery in other countries did not tend to do this, but simply change the oil regularly.

Go ahead and put your faith in those extended change intervals, maybe it works great for you. Personally, I lost that faith a long time ago when working with precision hydraulics equipment. Engines are much more forgiving in this manner, so it leaves the door wide open for speculation.

[sbtrucking]

I wish I read this before my first oil change with shell synthetic,
can I add gear oil to synthetic?
also on the tune i hear all this horor stories, how can we get a tune that keeps the oil darkening and wear down and not burn our turbos?

[yamajason]

Installation manual for the AMSOIL BMK30 Bypass Oil Filter kit

[t700]

Thanks for all the help.
Hope to get installed this month.

T700

[Cuya]

(03-05-2016 )sbtrucking Wrote:  ...
also on the tune i hear all this horor stories, how can we get a tune that keeps the oil darkening and wear down and not burn our turbos?
...

http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?t...743#pid743

[yamajason]

Anybody know what these port are for? Prefiltered, filtered, high pressure, coolant??? Which one do you use for Bypass oil filter hose? Also trying to find a suitable way to install a one way check valve for the Backup Oil Pump project http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=74
This is a CUMMINS ISX Engine Oil Cooler 4952503